Pricing Web Sites per Page (Full Version)

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Vern -> Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/18/2002 10:38:23)

Have any of you used a pricing approach modeled on a per page basis. If so, what guidelines have you set for size of page, # of graphics, etc?

I have read that a web site should cost $150 to $300 per page. It' s a little like saying a new car should be designed for an average speed of 60-65 mph - that is 0 to 130 mph max.

Any thoughts?




erinatkins -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/18/2002 10:57:08)

Vern,

If those prices are correct I am way under priced. Our normal prices per page are near $75.00 per page. Normally 3 graphics per page.

We also have sites that are less than that.

Erin



abbeyvet -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/18/2002 11:06:44)

Personally I do not think pricing per page is a particularly useful way to price sites.

The reality is that once you have created a template page each subsequant page is little more than adding content, whether it is a one page site and an 10 page site the template will be the thing that takes the time, and it will be the same amount of time in either case.

Also there can be pages that the site owner will be unaware of the need for, for example if you have a form, as most sites will, that could well be 3 pages - the form page, an error page and a comfirmation page. How many do you charge for? And custom error pages if you use them, that could be maybe 5 or 6 pages.

The real time difference between one site and another is not usually the number of pages but

- The number of images required and whether they need to be scanned, how much work/optimisation they need etc

- The amount of content to be added - ie what is a page? 300 words? 3000 words?

- Whether that content needs to be entered manually, edited or even written or rewritten for the web

- The degree of functionality required - script sourcing, installation, testing etc is very time consuming


Of course once you get into databases the concept of pages is may be totally redundant.

I know this does not make it easy, but pricing is not an easy issue. Aside from all the above it is also dependant on pricing levels locally or by your competitors, wherever they are, on your skill, your artisitic and/or technical ability and so on.

There is a little more on the subject here: http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/business/firstclient3.htm








Seventh -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/18/2002 15:16:33)

quote:

I have read that a web site should cost $150 to $300 per page.


What you haven' t told us is does that include hosting, flash, scripting, etc.?

Though my average per page cost is approximately $100, I can' t possibly charge a person that for a simple text page. That' s not good business sense. Some pages were $20 and others $300 due to the nature of the page such as flash, javascript, custom graphics, editing and on and on.

You may want to take abbeyvet' s advice to heart. There are a lot of things that can cause you to lose business as opposed to gaining business. And incorrect pricing is usually the determining factor of how long a person will be in business.



moose -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/18/2002 19:15:28)

I have to agree with Seventh here, oddly enough, his and our pricing structures are about the same.

I have always worked on this principal. If it takes rougly three hours to build a decent page - based on the skill levels of a half way decent web designer - then at $55 an hour, $150 for a main or product page with say four images and about 500 words on it is a good price (these are Aussie $$$ though remember as we are down under). That said, we can charge anything from $50 for a page with just a small amount of text on it (say a form confirmation page) to $300 or $400 for a page, if it includes flash etc.

If you want to price on a per page basis, have a set base page fee, and then have prices for other options, like a price to include a contact form, or a price to include flash, in additional to a base page price (and have a description of what such a base page would contain for the money). Say too that you will discount prices for less content, and you will likely pick up more business.



Long Island Lune -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 12:15:50)

Don' t be confused. What someone gets per page in Dallas might not be what someone in San Francisco gets. All locations are different. You would be smarter to see what local people in your area are getting " per page" . You want to be competitve right??? Check your newspaper and it' s online website. That' s the best place to start your search for competitive page pricing in your area. Also, I agree with abbeyvet said. " I do not think pricing per page is a particularly useful way to price sites. " I think by the page is more confusding.





erinatkins -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 12:35:18)

We have a normal price per a 5 page basic site. If there is less text on pages I throw in a few pages.

I will also charge a start up company less.

I think you need guidelines but I will not lose a customer for a few $. We are flexible.

You also need to know what your market is & work with it.





Northbreeze -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 12:40:07)

This is such a hard topic ... but I believe in per page pricing .. how you figure out what you charge per page is up to you.

I find that a lot of ppl charge per hour ... I think this is not a good way ... from the consumer perspective ... how do they know how long or how much time you have spend on their site ... one person may be able to work faster than another or get more achieved in an hour than someone else. How do you prove, if the customer so wishes, how much time you did actually work on their site?

So per page is the way to go in my opinion.[;)]



LarryMcJ -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 13:53:02)

Vern,

I agree with what others have said here, but I want to reiterate that you can' t build web sites under a cookie cutter approach, with every site being the same cost per page, or per hours, etc. The biggest measuring component I use for pricing is the pricing of my competition...and I only mean the good ones. I totally factor out the fly-by-nights and try to undercut the best, while still providing some things they don' t provide (or at least what they don' t profess to provide on their own sites).

I may be foolish here, but I also factor into pricing what the customer can afford, which almost always relates to the size and complexity of design, etc., so it' s generally the same thing. I built a 100-page site for a large software company and yes, it was a lot more per page than the five-page site I' m building for a local barber shop. I should have the flexibility to do this if I desire. That barber shop may be the next person who refers me to another large software company.

I think that everyone should have the ability to be online, even if they don' t have the talent to do it themselves. If I suspect they can' t afford the absolute very best in design, database integration, or graphics...there is still a way to get them a good site and not compromise your own business by putting something online of inferior quality. Let' s be honest...how much time do we spend putting a simple site together using a good template :-)

My standard contract has verbiage in it that addresses discussing pricing with others. Sure, that would never hold up in court, but it makes them feel good about the lower price that I' ve given them expressly for NOT discussing it with other potential clients.

Larry



abbeyvet -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:06:32)

I don' t think that the alternative to per page is per hour. I think you chanrge for functionality and complexity.

What is a page? How long is a piece of string?

I repeat my earlier point. The only page in the typical content based site that takes any time is the template page - by which I mean that by the time you have made that your site is designed - you have a template, you have your style sheet, you have your include pages, you have a navigation that reflects your planned site structure, just no content yet. That takes the same amount of time no matter what.


If I have two clients who have content in reasonable shape so that by pasting it into Notepad and from there to a page I only have to do a little formatting, then I could easliy generate a new page from a template, add it to my navigation include and have it all done in 5-10 minutes.

Thus it is really not material to me whether the client has 5 pages or 25 from a time point of view - that latter site might take me an extra couple of hours. I think I am doing the 25 page client a great disservice if I apply a similar page rate to that I would apply to the 5 page client.

What will take a little more time in the larger site is planning an arcitecture for the site.

Imagine though the following scenario:

My 25 page client, though the site has a lot of content, is not concerned with too much functionality, just a simple contact form and she may need some updating once a year or so.

However if the 5 page site owner says she wants a flash intro on one page, a very complex form on another and also wants to be able to update the other three pages direct from her browser with no knowledge of HTML, we are into different terretory.

Now the 5 page site will cost more than the 25 page one.

And as I said before more and more sites are running scripts or running off databases that take the entire concept of a page and junk it as stuff is being generated as required, either in response to the user or by the site owner managing their own site.


I am also intrigued by the idea of a 5 page site, or even three page one, which is one fairly commonly asked for by clients. In fact most sites I make will have more that 5 pages before there is ever a whit of content in the site.

2 = form confirmation/ form error
5 = custom error pages

Then there are the ' pages' the client never counts - like terms and conditions, privacy policy etc etc.

I know it may seem the easiest way for clients to understand, at least at the outset, but I really do find that once oyu get away from the idea of the ' page' which is really a construct we have taken over from print media, that your pricing will more accurately reflect the actual work involved.







Vern -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:21:55)

thanks, Erin

I define a page as what will normally print out on a sheet of paper 8.5x11 at 800 x600 res with 2 graphics. But I give people the benefit of the doubt and extend that to 8.5 x14 -depending on content.

Whether the per page concept is useful or not, I don' t know. I' ve read many good posts below, and am not in favor of the per page pricing. However, that is the first thing people ask when they call. " I think I need 5-6 pages; what do you think? And what will it cost?"



Vern -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:23:04)

Good info. Thanks!



Vern -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:27:01)

Pure HTML. Up to 3 simple scripts per site - maybe 1 o2 Java Scripts, and a Java Applet. Custom logo provided by Client; 5 other images for the site. Scan in 3 images; other scans extra.

Flash, Custom Images qouted as extra.

Does not include domain reg, and hosting. These are charges I pass on to the client without any markup.

Very good comments from the forum members.



Vern -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:34:09)

Thanks

Do you give out estimates to potential clients over the phone? I like to say " the price might be this or that, but I' d have to schedule a consultation so you can show me what you need. Consultations are free! Then I' ll give you a firm quote and a contract to look at" .

Good side is your not committing; bad side is you lose clients up front before ever working with. Possibly they' re worth losing??




Vern -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:36:18)

Thanks

I agree per hour is worse. Especially when you take work you know you can do, but haven' t really done it in excrutiating detail. A client is paying for you expertise. The time spent in a learning curve is your responsibility! Right?



Vern -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 14:39:21)

Katherine,

I' m beginning to like the 3-5 page concept including AC, Cruise, Power Windows, and Power Locks. It' s what everyone wants. But if you need Traction Control, or a Moon Roof - that' s extra.

Thanks



_gail -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/20/2002 18:01:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vern

Good side is your not committing; bad side is you lose clients up front before ever working with. Possibly they' re worth losing??



Yes, sometimes it' s worth losing a client. When my husband and I owned a printing and graphic design shop we' d have people ask us for a quote over the phone. We tried to discourage that but if they forced the issue, would qualify by saying we would give a firm price upon review of the job. Nine times out of 10, the job was nothing like they explained over the phone.

I' ve read this thread with great interest, particularly because every time I price a job I still get butterflies in my stomach. But I think it is an incredibly important topic. So I' ll add my two cents, no doubt diverging a bit to a related issue, not only pricing a job but getting it.

I agree with many points made here, particularly about not overpricing your market and price based on functionality and complexity. I would add " creativity" to the list.

One of the things I do after an initial consultation with a client is provide a worksheet which lists questions about what they need in terms of a website. After the form is returned, I follow-up with a call and go over additional information I need. I have not, at this point, even the assurance of getting the job but I now know what the job will entail and the client has a better understanding of what is involved in creating a website (most don' t have the foggiest idea). Equally important, the client and I have established a rapport and, hopefully, trust.

One of the questions I ask on the form is the amount of money they have budgeted for their site. I never take advantage of this information. For example, if they say they have a budget of $1000 - 1500, it doesn' t mean I' m going to charge that much if the work doesn' t justify it. On the other hand, someone once gave me their budget and the quote was almost three times the amount. I did get the job and believe in large part it was due to the early educational process and the rapport.

I used to buy into the per page pricing bit but no longer do. To some extent, I try to estimate the amount of time a job will take then times that by my hourly fee. But that still doesn' t cover everything. I try to determine what my creativity is worth for any given job.

I also have a list of other charges over and above the general creation and design of the main template such as if they need a logo designed. A good contract will cover the " extras" area. Once a client told me they did not need a logo designed but ended up requesting I do so midway through the job. My contract allowed me to charge for this over and above the quoted amount. (as an aside, I never understand when web designer lists that developing a website includes logo design, the very identity of a business!)

Unless you purchase a premade template for a customer, and despite all the technical stuff that goes on behind the screens, designing a website is a very creative process. It is not easy to put a price on creativity so, to get back to one of the main points, whatever the market will bear.

gail




Shortstuff -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/21/2002 4:22:35)

You might want to check out Brenner Products at http://www.brennerbooks.com/bigproducts.html. Robert Brenner provides an exceptional product line which will assist you in setting a price, whether it be by page, number of images on each page, additional code needed, etc. He offers regional pricing tables as well as hourly rates for various states. Books can be purchased in hardcopy or in PDF. Take a moment and check them out.




Kitka -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/21/2002 4:54:59)

quote:

You might want to check out Brenner Products at http://www.brennerbooks.com/bigproducts.html


I got " 404 Not Found" error when I clicked on that link. I also went to the home page www.brennerbooks.com, and couldn' t find your " bigproducts" . Would you post again please?



erinatkins -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/21/2002 8:47:26)

Vern,

quote:

However, that is the first thing people ask when they call. " I think I need 5-6 pages; what do you think? And what will it cost?"


I would normally give them my normal price for 5 page site but let them know that if they have less content it might cost less. Normally that gets them in the door.

When I meet with them I go over what they want & give final cost. I also go over other services & explain package deals.

Since we are an honest company & work with the little guy - we normally get the site.

Since some customers do not understand computers we put things in layman terms.

Erin



Shortstuff -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/21/2002 14:56:36)

Kita:

Try going to http://www.brennerbooks.com/bigproducts.html or just http://www.brennerbooks.com

I have found Robert' s books very beneificial when it comes to pricing in the Houston and surrounding areas (keep in mind that his books cover the United States, not just South Central). Pricing is very diverse here; his listings include pricing for cities and zip codes and are not limited to web design services but include input, design, and production services as well as prepress, camera/film services, multimedia, software and other services such as virual assistance. I have found four of his publications extremely beneificial: Pricing Tables for DTP (which includes web design), Hourly Rates (by State), Pricing Guide for Web Services and How to Price Graphic Design and DTP Services.




barry -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/21/2002 15:35:46)

So in summery to what you all seem to agree on is as follows:

One of the best ways to establish a price for ANY product is ask the potential client what thier budget is. If they have one great! Then you work backwards and educate them on what they can get for that budget vs what they say they need.

If they don' t, thats wonderful also[:D]. Thats when begin the education process to inform them of the details behind the pricing. I have yet to find anyone who is spending money for a product that represents them, that does not want to be educated about it.

This gives you/me/us a BIG advantage over possible competition.
1) I get to educate/sell/justify my product and expertise (or lack of[:@]). Also plant questions for them to ask the competition.

2) You/me/us get to dig down to what is really important to the client, which in many cases has not relation to the what they think they want.

You/me/us can then judge if they are serious.

Thus I would give them a flat solution solving price.

barry



Reflect -> RE: Pricing Web Sites per Page (11/22/2002 7:49:20)

Barry,

Great summary. Just went to a class on this type thing, relating to another field though.

Customers express desires but there is also a base need. Depending on the budget you can figure out where to fit into every time on a comfortable level. This also gives you room to expand the customer site in the future or a perfect " touch base" excuse if you do not also have a maintenance contract.

I also got a new acronym that the instructor laid on me, it expands a well known one....


KISSOFF

Keep it simple stupid or face failure.

She stressed making of a base trust relationship and building of good will between yourself and the customer. She stated this will bring the customer back to you time and again (hopefully others by word of mouth too).

Brian



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