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shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 14:31:53 Hi all I was looking for comments on this new site I am working on. Most of the links are working. http://www.feastingfox.com/home.htm They want to keep everything simple and clean, but wanted your input whether or not it needed more color throughout or if it was just too blah looking. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!


mbmunday Posts: 162 Joined: 8/8/2002 From: North Richland Hills, Texas Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 17:43:10 Good job. The site looks clean and navigates easily. The only suggestion I have, is to make the logo at the top a bit smaller (maybe on all the pages except the home page). At 800x600 resolution (the most common), you have to scroll down a bit just to read the content. Very good job overall though. MB (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 20:00:45 Thanks for looking MB That is a good idea about the logo. They usually are a tad smaller on the inner pages and I didn' t think about that. I just made it a bit smaller and moved everything up and it looks better! Thanks for the tip! < Message edited by shawna -- 11/30/2002 8:09:41 PM > (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 20:17:32 shawna, Nice job. I do however, personally find some minor things distracting: The main links across the top: too much spacing between them. I' d arrange them similar to the bottom links. Also, I don' t think there is any rule about this, but most HOME links are listed first. I' d place it first, as most visitors will be used to this location. I' d also consider eliminating the underlining from some of the hyperlinks. Would give a cleaner look, imho. One more thought. So everything doesn' t look so piled up at the top of pages, I' d put the address on one line: 4200 South Grand Boulevard - St. Louis, Missouri 63111 Place a bullet or something similar where I have a dash, and spell out Blvd. I think it would reduce the sort of zig zaggy feeling on top. gail (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 21:11:53 Good suggestions Gail - just tried them and it does look better. Thanks! What did you mean about the underlines on the links? Do you mean how I have the color highlight and both the over and underlines? I was afraid not to underline them as it seems so many people I have talked to lately still don' t know what a link is and I figure they assume that anything with an underline is a link. I' ll have to think on that one lol (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 21:36:04 Hope you don' t mind, but it' s easier for me to illustrate than type out my thoughts. You actually had 11 rows of text at the top. That' s a lot! Then you have lines under each hyperlink. Besides eliminating the lines under the hyperlinks, I also suggest you make them smaller, eliminate a few unnecessary words, and place them on one rather than two line. For what it' s worth here are a few other suggestions for your consideration. Logo: if you have discretion to alter slightly, place copy on one line. Again, this reduces the lines of text along the top and gives some " white space." Make the green line solid. This too elimantes another line. In fact, I' d make it half the heigth of how I made it (or simply eliminate one of the two lines). gail PS Sorry to make the graphic so large. It looked yucky when I reduced it. Attachment (1) < Message edited by _gail -- 11/30/2002 9:43:05 PM > (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 22:07:56 ok, I see what you mean now. I will try it that way. It does look better all on one line like that. I need to get the AOL browser out of my mind as we have cable, too. When I look at my sites on the AOL browser screen itself, it moves things to the next line and sort of out of proportion so I have a tendency to do things like I did on this site. It does that with this forum, too. Changes all the font, etc. We are getting rid of it soon but I think it is actually worse than Netscape. Anyway ......... No problem placing the graphic on there - I do better by seeing it than by reading it. Thanks! (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 11/30/2002 22:26:11 Just changed it again and it looks a lot better to me. Actually I removed the contact us page, too. I really didn' t understand why they wanted that as they don' t have an email address and the phone number is on all the pages. So I will explain it to them. I added a few words on the feedback page about calling for contact so that should do it. Your ideas are great, Gail. Thanks a bunch! (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/1/2002 16:58:45 After taking another look, I have a few additional suggestions: - consider making the address the same font size and style as the phone numbers. Think I' d place them on one line, adding the same dingbat between the zip code and the word telephone. - in keeping with web page " convention" try placing the main Links where the phrase " A Historical Dining Experience..." is. They still " feel" out of place. I' d bold the phrase and find another location for it. gail (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/2/2002 9:05:43 I moved the links to the top on the homepage only. Do you think it looks more eye-appealing this way or the way the other pages are? I want to also try moving the fox over in my graphic and see if I like it better. (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/2/2002 9:28:07 quote: ORIGINAL: shawna I moved the links to the top on the homepage only. Do you think it looks more eye-appealing this way or the way the other pages are? I want to also try moving the fox over in my graphic and see if I like it better. shawna, Eye-appeal is quite subjective so here are my subjective comments and opinions: WOW! I think it looks a whole lot better! It' s cleaner and, importantly, the links are now placed in the familiar place where most web surfers will expect them. When I look at the other pages where you didn' t make the change and have them on two lines, I think it looks too busy. Good decision to move the graphic. I think I' d move the " A St. Louis Landmark" text over along with it or somewhere else. I just sorta hangs there by itself." What a vast improvement from the original. Congratulations. gail < Message edited by _gail -- 12/2/2002 9:39:46 AM > (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/2/2002 9:36:51 btw, I' d like repeat a suggestion I made before. Consider placing the address and phone #s all on one line. I' d suggest two abbreviations, changing Telephone to Phone, to shorten the length. Use the dingbat where I have the dashes (other than in the phone numbers, of course). 4200 So Grand Boulevard - St. Louis MO 63111 - Phone 314-352-3500 Fax 314-352-6992 gail (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/2/2002 10:30:35 Thanks Gail! I think that homepage is all fixed up now! Learned a lot from this one! Now to get busy today moving the other pages around. :-) (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Hey Thanks Gail - 12/2/2002 14:28:28 I just wanted to thank you because I LOVE how this all came together after your input. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Hey Thanks Gail - 12/2/2002 19:05:59 You' re very welcome, shawna! I know I' m going to drive you nuts, but I have one final suggestion about the Landmark phrase in the header area. I' ll show it visually by uploading a graphic for each of the two variations of the suggestion. This one lines up the phrase with the end of the " s" in the word facilities: Attachment (1) (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Hey Thanks Gail - 12/2/2002 19:08:20 And this suggestion changes the size and location of the text. Utilize " white space" to draw emphasis on the name of the restaurant. I' m outta here! [:p] gail Attachment (1) (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/2/2002 19:10:28 HA! I almost did it just like the second one! I still can, too! lol and I probably will now!!! Thanks again! (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/2/2002 19:14:48 quote: ORIGINAL: shawna HA! I almost did it just like the second one! I still can, too! lol and I probably will now!!! the second would be my pick too!! btw, the place has a yummy menu! gail (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/4/2002 9:44:02 Oh, why not?! Here' s one more minor suggestion. The little fox guy, why not move him lower slightly so his feet are on the same baseline as the letter " F." (one same line as the lower, serif portion of the F). Besides looking better visually, imo, you can remove some of the extra white space above the logo. Why do I suggest this? So you can see more of the main content (text) on each page. gail (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/4/2002 12:04:30 Ok - I' ll try it today! I have to add the word " Pub" after Restaurant now and move the other text down. My client forgot to tell me about using that word. Maybe I should animate the little fox drinking his brew and eating that drumstick! Just kidding! It was enough to cut him out and paint him! While I have you - is there a tutorial anywhere that you know of to making template graphics with sizes and stuff for tables for the layout and getting everything lined up to fit? I would really love to do this but don' t know where to start. When I tried once everything was way too large and I haven' t had any extra time to piddle at the moment. I use Photo Impact and I love it and don' t want to switch to Jasc or anything else. It does the dicing and all the little perks, too. Like templates that they sell here....do you know? I get bored with the same old stuff and would love to design templates to offer my clients. (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/4/2002 16:30:49 quote: ORIGINAL: shawna While I have you - is there a tutorial anywhere that you know of to making template graphics with sizes and stuff for tables for the layout and getting everything lined up to fit? Not sure I understand your question; are you talking about making graphics to fit tables, or tables per se: There are lots of tutorials here: http://www.outfront.net/frontpagetechniques.htm If you' re talking about designing a website as a graphic, check this out: http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/tm.asp?m=102318&p=1&tmode=1 One more thing, and remember, it is only an opinion. One of the things we' ve been " discussing" is the alignment of graphics for visual cohesiveness. It can be very subtle, usually takes more than one eye to " catch" and is always subjective though there is some sound theory behind it such as when drawing perspective. All this to say, why not line up the A in Al Smith with the left side of the letter F; in other words, nudge Al Smith to the right until they are aligned. I' m there must be a psychological term for someone like me who is bugged by these things;[:js] if there is I don' t want to know it. Nice job! gail (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/4/2002 18:52:10 Hi Gail These are some great threads. I never found this template stuff in a search but I probably searched with the wrong words. I' m like you - if someone could sit with me just once and " show" me - I would be able to go from there! I think the psychological word is " perfectionist" ??? But I consider myself one and look at all the little things I have done wrong! You would have a cow with all the other sites I have done for people! ha! Sometimes I find myself going back in and fixing things but up until now I never really got into the graphics part of this. But I love it and want it bad! As for the A on Al - I used left align but maybe I didn' t grab both images when I did it cause I thought it looked off, too. Guess I will have to do it again because now that you noticed it, too, it will drive me nuts! I want to print all this template stuff out first tho - cause you never know if a thread will disappear or not. Thanks for the help all the way around! (in reply to shawna)


rsweb Posts: 146 Joined: 11/13/2002 From: Alpha, MN - USA Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 14:13:56 I' d suggest not italicizing text, as it makes text more difficult to read. The fox is actually difficult to tell what it is...I assume it' s a fox. If you' d use a header layout similar to what Gail came up with, having the fox to the left...maybe making the header text a bit smaller, you could make the fox a tad bit larger and maybe then it would show better. If there was any way to get less " white border" showing around the header...don' t know if that' s possible...the header would take up less room also. I was wondering on the Menus page why you put the " title" underneath each menu section rather than above like you did with the other areas...maybe there' s a reason you did it this way ??? I don' t think you need to add a lot of extra color, etc. I like the simple layout. It' s stylish, easy to navigate...a very nice looking site. _____________________________ Rho (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 16:41:29 quote: ORIGINAL: shawna You would have a cow ...! I doubt very much that I would do that, though confess it would be quite an, er, unique experience. [:p] Eighth natural wonder of the world, or something like that. I could post my ultrasound at Outfront, just like bobbie recently posted that of his baby. All kidding aside, no matter what stage we' re at in graphics, web development, etc. there is always so much more to learn. Think of the great artists, musicians, sports figures...they all have coaches or trainers, someone to inspire them onward upward to greater things. Once we learn something, the next project should go easier. It' s been great working with you. I hope we both find someone in our areas who we can sit down next to and get some good instruction. Lot better than typing, isn' t it?! gail (in reply to shawna)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 17:24:19 Yes, Gail - it' s been fun! And I am learning lots! [:p] Ok - one more time tho I would like your opinion! RS mentioned making the fox a bit larger. So I did that on this page www.feastingfox.com/menus.htm as compared to the smaller guy on the other pages. I do like the bigger fox. But since the image I had to scan was tiny, I wasn' t sure if it looked blurry when I made it larger. Plus it was all brown and I had to add those colors you see to match what they had in the photo at the restaurant. What do you think? Does it look ok? I' m not the greatest with graphics. Oh - And RS, the menus page is kinda just there until I receive more input from my client. Not sure what she wants to title this page yet and if she even wanted it separate like I did it so that is why it looks a little different. And thanks for the compliments. They like it a lot! (in reply to shawna)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 18:01:26 quote: ORIGINAL: shawna Ok - one more time tho I would like your opinion! RS mentioned making the fox a bit larger. So I did that on this page www.feastingfox.com/menus.htm as compared to the smaller guy on the other pages. What do you think? Does it look ok? I' m not the greatest with graphics. If you want my honest opinioin, I do NOT like the bigger fox. It competes with the logo of the restaurant, which is the main thing I would think you want to focus on. Besides, I' m not sure you can tell any better that it' s a fox. You can use the sharpening feature which is found in most image editing programs. It can bring out a bit more details as the example below. I also selected the area with the magic wand, right under what I believe to be the fellow' s snout. Then I reduced the brightness and contrast of only the selected area. By doing this I tried to actually emphasize the snout so he looks a bit more foxy. I did this very hastily and there is no doubt more work I' d do to get it looking better if that' s the best quality I could get out of the original scan. Do you know how to do some of this stuff? What image editing program do you use? gail Attachment (1) < Message edited by _gail -- 12/5/2002 6:30:03 PM > (in reply to shawna)


rsweb Posts: 146 Joined: 11/13/2002 From: Alpha, MN - USA Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 18:01:59 IMO the fox looks better...it is difficult when working with a small original. I can tell he' s " feasting" now. Before I couldn' t even tell it was actually a fox. As far as the menu " title" the section I was referring to was the area I outlined in the attachment. I thought that was the " title for the section" . Attachment (1) _____________________________ Rho (in reply to shawna)


rsweb Posts: 146 Joined: 11/13/2002 From: Alpha, MN - USA Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 18:05:48 The sharpening you did on the fox looks good. I agree that since it can be made " sharper" without making it larger that works better. I was thinking maybe the image couldn' t be enhanced anymore. Sometimes it depends on the graphic you' re working with. _____________________________ Rho (in reply to _gail)


_gail Posts: 2874 From: So FL Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 18:21:22 quote: ORIGINAL: rsweb The sharpening you did on the fox looks good. I agree that since it can be made " sharper" without making it larger that works better. shawna could redo her own graphic, or simply right-click on the one I uploaded, save it to her hard drive and use it. I think the only thing I' d add is a little more color to the tip of the snout without overdoing it. rsweb, the graphic is a difficult one with which to work. My guess is that the original isn' t that good to begin with. gail < Message edited by _gail -- 12/5/2002 6:28:31 PM > (in reply to rsweb)


shawna Posts: 119 Status: offline	RE: Suggestions please - 12/5/2002 19:14:35 Hey, thanks Gail! I did save your graphic and used it. Check it out. I may try to retouch the snout but homework and a new binder from Walgreens take preference. I appreciate it tho and I will be back on it tomorrow. Yes, the graphic was very difficult. The fox itself is inlaid in tile and I could only scan from a tiny picture in a booklet / brochure that they had. But the color in that was drab and when you look at it in person the colors are nice and bright. So after I scanned and tried to paint it - it looked so much better than the original scan. But then, consider I had never painted like this before and am still learning how to use it. BTW, I use Ulead' s Photo Impact. I really love it - just need to learn more about it. Can' t afford all the other fancy stuff right now. Maybe Santa can buy it for me?? I' ll be back!!!! Thanks! (in reply to shawna)