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hhammash
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/16/2003 3:41:47
Thank you mar0364 for sharing this. Very nice.
Really fun with tables.
Hisham
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Long Island Lune
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 1:53:54
Nice article. But will NN user' s complain??? NN has really got to get with the program and stop being a pain in every developer' s side!!! Ouch!!!
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hhammash
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 6:12:14
Hi Mark,
I think NetScape 7.0 is OK. I tried many tables on FP and browsed them on IE and NN07, they were fine.
Thanks
Hisham
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hhammash
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 15:52:15
Hi,
I just make my tables with thin borders and they go fine when browsed by NetScape.
Sometimes when the table go crazy, I create a table with one column and one cell and then insert a table inside it.
Hisham
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abbeyvet
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From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 16:03:25
quote:
Actually I was referring to NN " in general" and how some developer' s go crazy to accommodate its incompatibility with the rest of the world.. I stopped doing that years ago and barely acknowledge its existance.
I was one of the ones who went crazy!
I spent, until quite recently a lot of time and energy making sure eveything look ok and worked ok in NN4x. Time that was quite out of proportion to that warranted by the number of people using it. I just felt that I owed it to clients to have their sites working much the same in all browsers.
That was what stopped me from moving towards all CSS layouts. But then I just read a single sentence that made me change my mind. It went like this:
quit spending so much time worrying about backward compatibility that your sites end up lacking forward compatibility
So now I am taking the time to explain this issue to clients, explain that I will endevour to make their site usable in NN4x but will not spend excessive time making it identical. But that the code used to create their sites will be compliant - HTML (or XHTML) and CSS - and therefore have greater forward compatibility. And be perfect in all but a few browsers used by a small minority.
And I am referring those with non compliant browsers to this page:
http://www.webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/
It was in the deveopers tips section that I read the bit that changed my approach.
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hhammash
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 17:35:56
Hi,
What is the percentage of NetScape users and IE User? If it is equal or almost the same why don' t we have a starting page with two buttons, Netscape and IE. The user will click on the button of his/her browser, then takes them to the Index page that is compatible with their browser.
This is much more work of course, but commercially, you might lose Netscape users who love Netscape, they will feel neglected by you (get sensitive about Netscape: Mark knows what I means here).
Or using JavaScript which can detect the browser and accordingly decides where to go automatically, so both users will feel happy.
Thanks
Hisham
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abbeyvet
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From: Kilkenny Ireland
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 18:45:40
quote:
What is the percentage of NetScape users and IE User?
According to this site the percentage using OLDER netscape browsers - ie below version 6 - is around 2-3 percent. Which is low, no matter how you look at it.
Estimates of total numbers of users of all versions of NN vary a lot - from about 2-20% according to that page. But really, from a CSS/compatibility point of view it is only older NN users that matter and it is relatively easy to make things ok for the newer versions which are far more standards compliant.
It always strikes me as odd that people are still so worked up about NN4x, given that so few people use it, when they never really make any fuss about using JavaScript, when stats repeatedly show that there are about 10-12% of people - a far higher percentage - using either non-javascript enabled browsers or surfing with JavaScript turned off.
But then for all that, I am not about to uninstall NN4.7 any time soon. [:j]
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_gail
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From: So FL
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 18:58:52
quote:
ORIGINAL: abbeyvet
It always strikes me as odd that people are still so worked up about NN4x, given that so few people use it,
But then for all that, I am not about to uninstall NN4.7 any time soon. [:j]
Aw come on now, Katherine, please explain these statements which seem like an oxymoron, if I understand them correctly, which I do not! [:p]
And, Long Island Lune, you are my new hero with regard to NN 4-point-whatever. Let the +/- 2% download a more current version of IE or NN. And let the software developers work this out, not me.
Do I have a bad attitude?
gail
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Long Island Lune
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 19:11:50
Gail,
Not at all....
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_gail
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RE: Fun with tables - 1/19/2003 19:22:53
quote:
ORIGINAL: abbeyvet
I just cannot seem to ignore that 3%. I hate the thought of them clicking into TOTAL chaos, I don' t mind if its a bit less pretty than what others see, but not a real mess, no, that would not do at all, at all.
<memo to=" self" >Get a Life!</memo>
Alas, you are a better soul than I, lady from Ireland...and a fine example to us all who would, to NN 4.xx, rather say...........
.............Oh, never mind. [:p]
I' ll write that memo to " self" down too. 
gail
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Andy from Somerset
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RE: Fun with tables - 2/21/2003 6:22:30
I also spend far too long trying to make my sites look good in Netscape 4 and have been considering ignoring this browser altogether when designing sites. I have been reluctant to do so in the past as I feel it is unfair on the admittedly small numbers of people who still use this browser (As unbelievable as it sounds, I have come across several people who still use Netscape 4 because either they didn’t realise it had been updated or if they did, they didn’t know how to).
There are scripts available that detect which type of browser is being used and display an appropriate message and I have considered adding this to my websites explaining that the site hasn’t been designed to be viewed with this version and advising the user to upgrade.
Does anyone think this is a feasible way around the problem or is it just a cop-out?
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Gil
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From: North Carolina, USA
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RE: Fun with tables - 2/21/2003 7:38:18
quote:
Does anyone think this is a feasible way around the problem or is it just a cop-out?
Depends on what the site is - a personal, non-business site: it' s up to the author. A business site: I think you owe it to the business (yours or clients) to make sure ANY visitor can navigate and access the information. The site may not be (and doesn' t have to be) as " pretty" in some browsers versions, but still should be useable.
< Message edited by Gil -- 2/21/2003 8:56 AM >
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abbeyvet
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RE: Fun with tables - 2/21/2003 8:20:57
There are a couple of ways of displaying things to users of older browsers or redirecting them.
I agree with Gil to a point. But I have just finished quite a large buisness site that has, to a pretty large extent, decided to ignore NN4 users. This was based on a number of things:
1. The nature of the site and of its requirments made it quite desirable that it be constructed and laid out primarily using CSS. To do this the way we wanted to (ie while making it look ' pretty' rather than using a very plain layout) meant using a standard of CSS that would not be easy to make work for NN4 users.
2. It was a redesign. A review of the stats of the old site showed users of NN4 to be around 1.5%
3. The owner of the site was quite clued in about this sort of thing and wanted a site that was standards compliant and forward compatible.
The beauty of designing like this is flexibility. For example at one point during the design we moved the entire left column of the page to the right, and vice versa. There were already over 100 pages in existance at that point but it just meant editing one file - the CSS - to make it happen.
Having said that users of older non-compliant browsers were not ignored and the following things were done to accommodate them.
1. A separate stylesheet is used for them, which renders things reasonably well, though not as nicely as with other browsers.
2. A JavaScript is used to detect them and pop up an information window, explaining what we have done and why, with a link to more information.
3. For those without JavaScript, a line in the CSS allows us to include some text on the home page that is only cvisible to those using non-standards compliant browsers - essentially a link to the page that would otherwise pop up.
.shhh {visibility:hidden;}
Compliant browsers will not show anything using the class ' shhh' - non compliant ones will not know what the hell it is about and will display it.
I don' t know how many users will fall through these cracks, but hopefully few.
I think my point is you CAN use stuff in any site - even a business site - that is not available to everyone. But NOT as a sort of cop out, just to avoid the issue, you need to do a bit of extra work to make sure you have as many bases covered as possible.
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J-man
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RE: Fun with tables - 2/24/2003 16:53:19
I agree that NN7 works great, [:j] except i ran into a cookie problem, maybe i am the only one.... <im not knocking NN, there browsers are great enough that we design for them...>
All those whos computers can handle it, raise your hands if you are going to upgrade to NN7 or 8 from 4
The best thing that i like about browsers and tables is figuring out how to use only 1 or 2 in the design. I use to wonder what was browser compatible, until i was sent to the corner to get the feel for it, not to say i don' t use IE only effect, but to say with target audience specific design,
no wait, ' but to say' is on first, ' not to say' is on second...
hmmmm....
< Message edited by J-man -- 2/24/2003 4:57 PM >
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treetopsranch
Posts: 1155
From: Cottage Grove, OR, USA
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RE: Fun with tables - 3/1/2003 22:45:18
I love my NS 4.7
But, darn it all, I quess I will have to move to a later version someday maybe:)
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