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ajdevies
Posts: 113
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: Holly Hill, FL
Status: offline
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Webrings - 3/14/2003 22:13:25
I built a website for a small local art museum late last fall. The site quickly jumped to the #2 ranking on Google when searching by the museum' s name. The #1 Google rank using the same search criteria belongs to a county-owned site that links to all museums and other attractions in the county. I guess you could say we got the 1-2 punch from Google.
My contact at the museum found a webring for state-wide art museums, art galleries and artists. She asked my opinion about joining the webring. I read the information at the ring' s ' home page' and Web Ring' s TOS, privacy agreement and any other information I could locate.
I played around with the webring for several days, as well, encountering many broken links between sites in the ring. For those not familiar with webrings, one agrees to join the ring and receives by email some JavaScript code to place on every page in the website. The JS code is a navigation bar that connects each site within the ring. If one member of the ring neglects to insert the JS code on a page (or site) the navigation breaks down.
I was bombarded by pop-ups and pop-unders. I ran Ad-Aware to clean my system before playing in the ring and again after my experiment: I had 34 ' suspect' items added to my system as a result of accessing the ring and/or sites in the ring.
Has anyone else had any experience either personally or on behalf of a client with webrings? IMHO the TOS is a problem (they require permission to co-opt your site and/or content without notification or compensation), the ' broken' navigation is frustrating, and the pop-ups/unders don' t feel right for a small museum. While the advertising content of the pop-ups was for universities, DVD-rentals, computer hardware, etc., it all seemed distracting.
The museum' s site is located at [link=]www.ormondartmuseum.org[/link] should you want to see what I mean by the ' feel' of the site.
Information about Web Ring can be found at [link=]www.webring.com [/link]. Fair warning: accessing that URL generates at least two pop-unders!
Please pass along your advice, experience and comments with regard to webrings. My " gut-feeling" is to stay away from the webring given the high Google ranking. Am I being too picky and possessive?
Thanks in advance for your input. I know your time is valuable.
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AJ
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Mike54
Posts: 4782
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: Way Up Over
Status: online
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RE: Webrings - 3/15/2003 7:12:37
Hi AJ,
I' m afraid I don' t have any personal experience with webrings but here are a couple of links to threads on the subject.
Link exchanges what are they good for?
Opinions on webrings
Hope they help.
_____________________________
Who was the first guy that looked at a cow and said, "I think that I'll drink whatever comes out of those things when I squeeze them"?
New photogalleries, stop by sometime.
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ajdevies
Posts: 113
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: Holly Hill, FL
Status: offline
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RE: Webrings - 3/15/2003 10:57:40
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the links. I searched OutFront and read all that before I posted. Unfortunately it only partially answered my questions.
The two items I posted about weren' t really covered in those threads. One thread was concerned about hosting a webring, with a general consensus of it being inappropriate, at least from the main site. The other thread was more about click-for-profit links.
The specific arts-oriented webring my client wants to join already exists and my client is more concerned with web-based exposure - i.e. getting their information out there so visitors can add the museum to their itineraries. There is also an element of local history to my client' s website which they wish to promote.
I' m concerned about WebRing' s TOS:
quote:
" 8. CONTENT SUBMITTED OR MADE AVAILABLE FOR INCLUSION ON THE SERVICE
WebRing does not claim ownership of Content you submit or make available for inclusion on the Service. However, with respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of the Service, you grant WebRing the following world-wide, royalty free and non-exclusive license(s), as applicable:
With respect to Content you submit or make available for inclusion on publicly accessible areas of WebRing, the license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service solely for the purposes of providing and promoting the specific WebRing Ring to which such Content was submitted or made available. This license exists only for as long as you elect to continue to include such Content on the Service and will terminate at the time you remove or WebRing removes such Content from the Service."
I added the underlines for emphasis because that' s what scares me. I' m not an attorney and I have advised my client to seek counsel with regard to this.
I' m concerned, as a web programmer, about WebRing' s co-opting my copyright to the work I did for the museum. I would appear that I am giving WebRing the right to MODIFY, ADAPT, etc. my design and programming.
What if they do that in such a way it is incompatible with the museum' s mission or audience or community standing? This is a non-profit organization funded by state, county and local grants, donations, memberships and token admission fees. They could lose all public funding and my copyrighted work is pirated. Neither the museum nor I have the financial means to pursue these possibilities through legal channels.
Am I exaggerating the potential for this to happen? Has anyone HAD this happen to them? Should I advise the museum to reject the web ring out-of-hand?
Also, all the pop-ups/unders don' t " feel" appropriate for a small non-profit fine arts museum with a local and international legacy. Again, am I exaggerating?
I' m really looking for feedback on the appropriateness of putting a not-for-profit, publicly-funded fine arts museum into a webring that throws pop-ups at you left and right. IMHO it feels like swatting mosquitos during a garden wedding. Maybe that last sentence answers my own question with regard to the advertising issue.
Mike, maybe I should see if I can find an attorney willing to give the TOS a quick once-over for a minimal charge. I was hoping some of the more experience OFF members had been down this road. I' ve got several days before I have to respond to the museum on this. As I work at generating this post I see my own opinions more clearly. Maybe I' m just looking for reassurances.
_____________________________
AJ
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abbeyvet
Posts: 5095
From: Kilkenny Ireland
Status: offline
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RE: Webrings - 3/15/2003 11:25:46
quote:
Should I advise the museum to reject the web ring out-of-hand?
I think the answer to that is a plain Yes.
I have not bothered to read in great detail or try to understand the TOS here because I think they are irrelevant. My opionion Webrings are tacky, amatuerish, full of broken links and send your users randomly to sites over which you have no control and indeed no knowledge in a manner that implies that you somehow recommend them.
I think you are concentrating too much on the TOS, read the post again about webrings, there are a myriad of reasons for a site like this to keep out of them before you even go near the small print.
If your clients wish to have links to other related sites then the best way to do it is to contact the otehr sites, offer them a link and ask for a link in return. That way you are sure who you link to and can stand over any links you have on your site.
_____________________________
Katherine
:: InKK Design :: InKK Domains
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LB
Posts: 5551
From: Montana USA
Status: offline
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RE: Webrings - 3/15/2003 11:31:49
quote:
I' m really looking for feedback on the appropriateness of putting a not-for-profit, publicly-funded fine arts museum into a webring that throws pop-ups at you left and right. IMHO it feels like swatting mosquitos during a garden wedding.
If it' s reassurance you want, I do believe you' ll get it here. You have a good Google ranking and all this webring would really bring is a ridiculous TOS and lots of irritating ads.
Checking Google, you came up #1 for Ormond Art Museum. Very high for Ormond Florida Museum also, but on the second page for Ormond Beach Museum .....it' d be a good idea on the Home page title to replace Home with Ormond Beach, Florida.
IMO it seemed strange having the images pop up when clicked on... I thought they' d take me to another page in the site. Consider increasing their size so they can be seen better without needing to be enlarged in a new window?
Linda
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garry
Posts: 858
From: Northern Territory Outback Australia
Status: offline
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RE: Webrings - 3/15/2003 20:26:41
If it smells like it , it usually is !!!
Its only a matter of time before Google revamps its algorthyem? and catches up with spammy webrings and tars all that link to it with the same brush.
If it was Me !!..................
I would turf the webring (err.... throw out)
If you are doing well in the rankings, I would choose a few others that are also doing well and are reputable sites, direct link to them as " good sites in your field"
This way YOU have total control!! THen notify the other sites what you have done & why and ask for recipricol " quality control" links.
Basically you have your own " ring" made up of quality sites that will be a pleasure for all to browse.
The links are only a small part of your positioning in Google, you must also have good content which got you there .....(OK the webring position makes no sense, but be in charge of your websites destiny)
Lets face it, with webrings, you have no control over who drags the ring down. (Like all volunteer organisations)
Cheers from the Outback
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ajdevies
Posts: 113
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: Holly Hill, FL
Status: offline
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RE: Webrings - 3/16/2003 20:18:51
Thanks to all of you who responded to my concerns. Now I' m sure I will recommend NOT joining the webring to the museum staff.
There are several other small, unique museums in our area with whom we can exchange links as suggested. We (the museum staff and I) can also ask the local Chambers of Commerce for link exchanges, since the Chambers mention the museum but do not link yet because we are so new to the WWW or they are charged for changes to their websites and are waiting until they have enough changes to justify the cost. I' ll do some brainstorming with the museum staff to generate some other options.
As always, you have been very generous with your time, comments and expertise! Thank you again.
_____________________________
AJ
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ajdevies
Posts: 113
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: Holly Hill, FL
Status: offline
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RE: Webrings - 3/18/2003 14:22:46
This is a quick PS (post script) to let everyone know that my contact at the museum has accepted (y)our advice to stay away from the webring. We will be building our own quality-controlled ' links page' based on link exchanges with people we know.
I will also be implementing the suggestion by Linda to change the title on one of the web pages to help maintain Google ranking.
Again, thanks for your wonderful input and support.
_____________________________
AJ
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Printable Version 
If you want to maintain a professional look and feel for your site absolutely stay away from the popup/popunders. I certainly wouldn' t stick around if they were as bad as you indicate.
