Web Cost Question (Full Version)

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xeerex -> Web Cost Question (3/21/2003 17:40:45)

Hello all,

This forum has been of immense value to me in my fledgling career and everyone here has a wealth of insight and information. With that said, I need some advice on quoting a client.

Here is the breakdown:

Domain Name
Hosting for 1 year
Fully Functional Storefront
Credit Card enabled
2000+ Items in storefront
**data entry and SKU creation included
All graphics design for logos and product images
**not all items have an image currently---probably 30% do
Integration with UPS and USPS tools for freight calculations
Maintenance of storefront and site (item additions etc)

Now I know that there is a lot of variance on items such as hosting, credit card processing, and storefronts. The truth is that I already have those setup thanks in part to this forum. Some of the data entry will be sped up by import/export from an exisiting database, but I will have to enter at least 1500 items manually. Fortunately, the I have a few tricks to speed that up slightly.

What I am looking for is an approximation of the costs that a client would incur if looking for a webmaster to perform the above. In other words, how much is something like that worth?

You can see the " sample" storefront at www.dreracing.com/store . Please remember that it is " in progress" for show purposes so there are minimal graphics and it is not in tune with the main site. It is right now set to use my credit card processing in test mode so you can' t actually charge anything although you can go through the motions. If the client decides to go for the deal, then I will purchase the additional license for the store front and setup the clients cc processing.

Thanks for any feedback or input.



xeerex -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/23/2003 10:31:26)

/em hears the crickets chirping. [8|]



abbeyvet -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/23/2003 11:22:00)

I don' t think people have been avoiding your question exactly, just that it is really an impossible one to answer.

There are so many elements to consider.

1. Specific things
- How much customisation and configuration are you doing with the cart software?
- Does it require custom coding? How much? How complex?
- Does making the new images involve grabbing them from elsewhere? Scanning? Photography?
- In the case of new logo creation, is it just for the web or for print/signage etc also?
- What sort of hosting? How much bandwidth? Dedicated or virtual?

2. General things.
- What do you need to get from it to cover your overhead? This is a BIG one and will vary hugely from one person to another.
- Is this your first site of this kind - thus meaning it is partly a learning tool and you may be slower - or have you experience - meaning it will take less time?
- What is the competition in your area charging?
- How many billable hours have already gone into it?
- How much on going income do you expect to earn from it?


It really is impossible to give even a ballpark figure.


One thing, I have never personally been in the position where I left myslef to do all the data entry. Data entry is neirther design or development and requires far less skill than either and thus attracts a lower hourly charge. I always point out to clients that web designers/developers make very expensive typists and that they really are better to learn to input data themselves. Of course there would be a charge for training them.





xeerex -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/23/2003 11:51:53)

Thanks for the insight Abby. As usual you are really helpful. Let me try to address a few more specifics for you. Again, I am just looking for some figures so that if needed I can let the client know what type of value they are getting.

*Cart Customization: Added UPS and USPS integration, will mod the code to customize skin of cart (not very complex)

*New Images: involves mainly scanning and some grabbing, scanning will require optimizing for both and print.

*Logo Creation: both print and web, will also be creating a pdf version of the catalog for web and print.

*Hosting: going to redirect to a subweb of existing site so that can be taken out of consideration.

*Overhead: I' ll have to factor that one. I' m looking for some feedback on what others would charge given their overhead (ie I' m a customer looking for a quote).

*Experience: This is my first shopping cart implementation but not my first experiment with graphics optimization. I am also experienced in pdf creation and print.

*Competition: Virtually none in my area without going to Dallas. That' s why I like the area :)

*Billable Hours to date: 10 including r&d on cart and cc processor.

*Expected income: Haven' t really decided on that one. I would like to see what something of this magnitude is " worth" and then base my expected income on that.

*Data entry: I loathe data entry, but this client is a " mom and pop" type business that landed a large client. I' m in the situation where I really need to do the intial data-entry for consistency and to get it done in a timely fashion. I am keying in via the database. In the time it would take me to train them in data entry directly to the database and naming consistency, I can already have it entered. I am a certified apps trainer too to give you an idea of the clients computer skills.

I understand that this is rather complex to offer feedback. Really, it may be easier if you guys posted some storefronts and maybe what was charged. That may be asking a bit much so any help is really appreciated.

I have an idea that this may be valued somewhere around $1500-$2000 by the time I run all my time and overhead calculations. I don' t know if that seems high for a fully operation storefront or not. That is where I need the feedback since I have never asked webmasters for a quote on something.




abbeyvet -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/23/2003 13:43:37)

I honestly still do not think it is possible for anyone to quote you figures.

Look at it like this, take an identical project, handled by two different companies, CoA and CoB

CoA has offices in the centre of town and is an established provider of various web services, with a large staff including specialist web designers, coders and graphic artists. They also provide hosting in house.

CoB is a one person operation, run from a home office by a multiskilled individual who outsources any work for which specialist skills are required. The owner of CoB also works part time in a local community college teaching web skills and does a bit of technical writing on the side.


Now, for our imaginary project, CoA may quote $10,000 and CoB $1500 for a site that ends up looking and doing pretty much the same in either case, primarily because they have very different overheads. Both are fair prices, so the client has to decide whether the additional money is well spent for THEM. For some companies it will be, for others it will not.


For example the client might decide that CoB offers a personal, hands on, type of service which they like, is local, will be available to do some in house training at another time and, hell, is a LOT cheaper.

But on the other hand what happens if the owner of CoB gets a full time job offer that is too good to refuse, or decides to concentrate instead on the technical writing side of things, or, tragically, dies.

Then the site is in limbo - no one really knows much about how it all works and the whole system is thrown in chassis.

So, the client might decide that CoA' s track record means they will always be there, even if personell change and their size measn that every aspect f the site will be kept in house and thus more easily managed. If the site is one that is absolutely critical to their business they may not see the much higher price as being too high for them to pay.

What I am trying to say in a looooong winded way is that asking how much a site would cost is an impossible question.


While your ballpark of $1500-$2000 may work for you it may be that you could add a zero if it were done by a large company with a big overhead, or half the price if you are a developer based in Pakistan and contracting for work on Elance. Same site every time, fair price every time, very different prices.



xeerex -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/23/2003 14:30:55)

Abby,

Thanks again for the reply and insight.

I am not a newbie to business nor overhead and have already considered those factors. I suppose I' ll have to do it the " old fashioned" way and get some webmasters to quote on a site based on my specs.

I was really hoping for some feedback here since I know what many of the web developers are not a huge corporation nor based in Pakistan. I' ll read your replies as you not wanting to give a ballpark quote which is fine and understandable.

I asked for a ballpark quote on a storefront with approximately 2000 items and gave some specific details on the work to be performed. That is more information than I bet most small-business clients would be able to furnish if asking for a quote. I am not looking to use a quote of anyone' s " against" them so to speak. I' m just looking for some direction. It can' t be impossible to quote since I know someone here has been asked something similar by a client. There are a lot of storefronts out there.

I suppose I' ll do it the " long" way by calculating my costs and developing a quote. Then I' ll research other storefront costs and go from there. I suppose I have just answered my own post. [&o]

Again, I sincerely thank you for your insights Abby. You really are a wonderful help and inspiration to up and coming web developers/web masters.



xeerex -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/23/2003 19:10:53)

Update

Well I sat down and calculated up times and factored all costs. Plus, I posted on a few other boards and got some feedback. I have definitely revised my quote and it didn' t go down.




EWD -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/24/2003 0:04:38)

After I figure it all up in a similar manner, I ask myself, " How much do I want this client?" Sometimes it goes down, but when adding in the aggravation factor it usually goes up! [;)]



Paula -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/24/2003 2:59:19)

Hi,
Sorry I missed this one earlier. I' m in the same situation right now and I can tell you, to me, the price range you were in was LOW. I quoted too low on the project I' m working on, but I knew there was going to be a lot of learning involved for me. Still, it almost seems like people are more cooperative if they have to pay more! Odd. This is probably clouded by my recent experiences though, this has been challenging to put it nicely. Best of luck with your site.

Katherine, thank you for your insight, it was helpful for me and I' m sure it will be for others as well.



barry -> RE: Web Cost Question (3/25/2003 9:49:25)

I have learned that even if you give the client a deal they still expect you to go over and above the normal call.

If you have food in the fridge, utilities paid, car, mortgage and credit cards not late, then go for the pie in the sky figure.

Many business pay more for a lease on a copier then they are willing to pay for the web site. Which one will their clients see and make impressions about them from?

I try to step back and ask myself...............Self, how much does this company gross, how much do they pay for the phone lines, the employee salaries, Christmas parties, paper supplies, office lease, temps..........................

Note: A client got me to cut my fees 30%. 4 months later he took me out on a Friday " happy hour" with the IT department. He blew $3100 bucks in drinks and dinner! I found out that this is routine! I made a vow then. Nuff said!

Why should I subsidize them? PAY ME FAIR!

my 2cents

Barry



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