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smcfarland
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Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 4/24/2003 7:31:07
Sent some images to the printer, and they sent back because i needed 300 dpi. Anyone know how to change this in photodraw or psp? I cannot find it anywhere. Thanks for your help guys! I am SO out of my element here!
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WaterMan
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 4/24/2003 8:15:16
In Photoshop it' s under Image>Image Size. PSP should be very similar.
You can change to 300dpi, but it will adjust the output size of the picture as well. I could explain it better if you explained where the original pictures came from; scanner, digital camera, etc.?
Images for the web are usually 72dpi, b/c that is the resolution of our computer monitors.
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_gail
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 8:33:49
quote:
You can change to 300dpi, but it will adjust the output size of the picture as well.
We may just be using different terminology, but this statement is not quite accurate.
Changing the dpi (dots per inch) will change the screen size of an image. If you increase the size of a graphic from 72 dpi to 300 dpi, it will appear much larger on your computer monitor.
For example, take an image that is 2" x 2" when printed. Increasing the dpi to 300 dpi will NOT change it' s output size (dimensions).
In other words, when you print out the same image at 72 dpi and then again at 300 dpi, though they both look different sizes on the monitor, they both will print out 2" x 2."
gail
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abbeyvet
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 8:57:18
I am not a graphics person so I may be way off here, but I was under the impression that while you can happily reduce the dpi of an image, whicle preparing it for the web, you cannot then take that image later and increse the dpi without considerable loss of quality.
That is to say if the only existing image is now at, or was created at, 72 dpi, increasing the dpi will not work, you will need to go back to an original image of some kind again.
Am I wrong?
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garyb
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 9:18:00
Yike. Don' t do it! Katherine is right on. If you take a 72 dpi image and change the dpi to 300, it may look fine on the monitor but the printout will look awful. It will simply pixelate the image. Whenever you create artwork, you need to create it as large as you might need (dpi wise) and then you can always reduce it down but not go up.
You need to start with a large image. Your best bet would be to recreate it. We always start by creating the image so it can be printed and then reduce it for the web. You never know if you will need it for print...
Depending on the complexity of the artwork, you may be able to use genuine fractals to blow it up to 300 dpi. I have used that software in a pinch and it has worked very well on some images, not as well on others, and especially if it starts at 72. If you want to email the image to us I' ll be happy to run it through GF and send it back as a 300 dpi and you can try it. 9 times out of 10 it will be ok and I can probably tell by looking at it if it will be ok.
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_gail
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 9:46:58
Gary, how in the world can our experiences be so different about this? Perhaps the size of the originals we' re both using? I deleted my previous comments until I check a few things out.
gail
< Message edited by _gail -- 5/2/2003 9:55 AM >
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Shirley
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 10:22:50
quote:
Gary, how in the world can our experiences be so different about this? Perhaps the size of the originals we' re both using? I deleted my previous comments until I check a few things out.
I gotta agree with Gary and Katherine
In my experience when you try to go from 72 to 300 it is not pretty!!
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_gail
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 11:18:21
quote:
In my experience when you try to go from 72 to 300 it is not pretty!!
This is driving me nuts. Are we all comparing apples to apples?!?
Gary, are you not talking about changing the actual " physical" size of an image? So if you take a 2x2" image and increase it' s dimension to 4x4" (no matter what the resolution), it will print out pixelated?
The illustration below is a scan of two printouts I just made of the same sized photo. The original photo of the little boy was taken with my digital camera and is a 72 dpi jpeg. The first print was made from the image in it' s original state of 72 dpi. The second print was made from the exact same image, only the dpi was increase to 300 dpi. After printing, each printout was placed side-by-side on the scanner bed, then scanned (at 72 dpi btw)
A) The left side image settings:
Pixel dimensions: (159K)
Width: 265 pixels
Height: 205 pixels
Document size:
Width: 3.681 inches
Height: 2.847 inches
Resolution: 72 dpi
B) The right hand image settings:
Pixel dimensions: (2.7M)
Width: 1104 pixels
Height: 854 pixels
Document size:
Width: 3.681 inches
Height: 2.847 inches
Resolution: 300 dpi
Both images, exactly the same dimension but having vastly different resolutions, printed out perfectly.
So, I ask again, have we all been talking about the same thing?
gail
 Attachment (1)
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WaterMan
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 14:45:08
If you start out w/ a 72dpi image, then increase it to 300dpi, you are " interpolating" the pixel output. In other words, the reason your pictures look the same printed out is b/c you used the same output size quote:
Width: 3.681 inches
Height: 2.847 inches
Your editing program estimated the pixels for the difference in pixel dimensions quote:
original=Width: 265 pixels
Height: 205 pixels
New=Width: 1104 pixels
Height: 854 pixels
The only way to take a 159k image to 2.7MB is using interpolation, which is a fancy way to describe " digital pixel guessing" .
I have a plug-in for Photoshop called Genuine Fractals, which uses some advanced algorithms to interpolate pixels from photographs. It does an excellent job taking a 2MP (2Megapixel or ~ 1MB) image and increasing the output size to 50MB Or greater. I' ve personally had my 2MP Digital camera' s photos blown up to 24" x36" using this technique, and it works very well.
Summer, if you are still keeping up with this thread, let us know what type of images you sent to the printer....were they digital photos, scanned images, etc.
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garyb
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 16:09:12
Well, I hear what everyone is saying but I can tell you from a lot of experience that what is being proposed is a losing thing to do.
First to Gails point about printing things out, scanning etc. You are right, we are not talking apples and apples.
You are taking a picture and printing it out with your printer. Most likely, your print provider will either a) sent the artwork direct to plate or b) print direct from your artwork. The resolution that this will produce is very high and will show every little flaw in your image. The printer you are using is not likely to have a high enough resolution to show the differences but believe me, it will stick out like a sore thumb and you' ll end up, at the very least eating the cost of your printers film when you see how bad it looks. And, when you start paying hundreds or thousands of dollars to print things and the come out bad, you will be very unhappy.
As someone said, when you take your image into software like photoshop and simply change the resolution up, the software simply guesses and extends known pixels. IF you use software such as GF (as I suggested), you can usually increase dpi, size etc. In fact, we can take a regular picture and GF it up to a huge poster or a sign for the side of a bus. But, GF is very specialized software. It does a lot more than simply changing the dpi.
Sorry Walrus but Gail is standing on ice. How can something that is only a 72 dpi possibly produce a more detailed image? Yet that is exactly what is being proposed. You are simply spreading out the known pixels and filling in between with guesses. Sometimes, it looks pretty good until you print it.
Think about it also. IF the printer could simply blow up the dpi, they would just do it.
We have lots of money in our business tied up in what is called preflight software to make sure we don' t send low dpi images to printers.
So, I stand on my ground and we make pretty good money in the print industry side of the business. We also have money tied up in GF so that when we run into this kind of situation, we get an image that makes people happy.
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_gail
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 18:00:49
Gary is the pro. Having been in the print business previously, I have no arguments whatsoever with his points about commercial printing which are right on with respect to the original question by Summer.
I believe though, that for parts of this discussion some of us have talked about and intertwined different, notwithstanding related, issues. My points were made specifically to the statement below. I understood " output" to mean printed out with the operative words being " ...it will adjust the .... size."
quote:
You can change to 300dpi, but it will adjust the output size of the picture as well.
My response was:
quote:
when you print out the same image at 72 dpi and then again at 300 dpi, though they both look different sizes on the monitor, they both will print out 2" x 2."
The point I tried to illustrate was about Document Size, stating that changing the resolution of an image does not alter it' s actual print size (dimensions). Only enlarging and reducing it do. I believe, and hope, that I' m standing on pretty thick ice on this one.
gail
btw, I removed the very large image after Gary' s response, as intended.
< Message edited by _gail -- 5/2/2003 6:24 PM >
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garyb
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/2/2003 18:29:29
Hi Gail. I think we are pretty much on the same page . I guess my bottom line would be to be absolutely safe you should use a graphic whose original size is the size needed or greater. You' ll never go wrong if you do that. We learned this quite some time ago the hard way with an image that was going into a full color brochure. It cost us several hundred dollars in film when we had to redo the artwork at the right dpi to start with.
As I mentioned above, because many of our customers are either print customers who want web work or web customers who may want print work, we normally create critical items like logos as a 300 dpi photoshop image. We can then easily chop it down to 72 for the web but in about 1/3 of the times, the customer ends up coming back and asking for the artwork for print. It saves us a huge amount of time if it was created at 300 dpi and the only thing it cost us was disk space since it takes no longer to create the artwork at 300 dpi as opposed to 72.
This has been an excellent discussion. Thanks!
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garyb
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/4/2003 14:54:12
I' ve never heard of that software but I' ll have to check into it. Genuine Fractals is a great piece of software. They use it to blow up artwork to huge sizes. The better your starting image, of course, the better. Again, if someone needs a file run through GF, they can always give us a shout and we' ll do it for you. No sense buying it for the one or two times you might need it.
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WaterMan
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RE: Sigh, More Graphics help... dpi? - 5/5/2003 9:24:04
Gail,
I have not heard of the Qimage program, reading about it now.
I came across the GF program 5 or 6yrs ago while attending a Digital Photography seminar in Chicago. (My brother was just getting into dig photography, and it was a free trip for me  ). I believe a company called Altamira (now Lizardtech?) was selling the product. They gave us a nice demo of the product and we ended up getting two copies of the pro version for $150 or so. I do agree w/ Gary, however, I don' t think I' ve gotten my money out of the product....I' ve only used it about 10 total times, and most of those were for getting my 2MP images blown up to 18x24 and 24x36 by bigposters.com. Pretty neat!
Gail, my experience w/ GF is it does help 2MP images when going up to 8x10, especially if you need to crop the image. My 24x36 posters are only slightly pixelated, and can only be seen if a few inches from the printout. I think bigposters suggested 24x36 at 300dpi for best results....it must be some amazing software to take a 2mp image up to this size!
We were mainly interested in the product, b/c the lack of optical zooms on early model digital cameras. GF was suggested as an " after the fact" zoom. It would allow cropping of the image, while outputting the same print size, esentially becoming a " software zoom" .
And my statement about changing the output size of the image...I was referring to file size. Sorry for not clarifying the matter!
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