Will CSS replace tables? (Full Version)

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enrightd -> Will CSS replace tables? (5/29/2003 11:50:10)

I was reading all the CSS related stuff posted in the current Newsletter.
I was interested because I think I read that CSS will do away with Tables.
I was at a Link posted by slbergh @

http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/properties/page_layout.html

After reading for an hour and a half I got to

quote:

The issue of positioning isn' t particularly difficult, I trust, but it is a bit tricky. I hope this irons out the issue of the different kinds of positioning available in CSS2. Below we' ll look at how to put these into practice.

Positioning enables very sophisticated page layout, but as with any powerful technology, it is complicated at times.


Right now my head hurts.

One question.
Will CSS replace Tables?



abbeyvet -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 11:58:10)

quote:

Will CSS replace Tables?


As a tool for laying out tables? Generally speaking, yes it will, in the case of many websites it already has.

It has considerable advantages and is now generally well supported enough by browsers to allow it to be used pretty widely.

Having said that, tables are not going to go away. Even within a CSS layout, they are used for laying out tabular data.

They can still be used for layout, browsers will continue to understand this sort of layout and to display it.

However the advantages of using CSS instead are so great that I would expect that within a year, or certainly two, that the majority of sites will be using CSS for layout.






enrightd -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 12:03:06)

Thanks Katherine.
I knew I' d hear from you.[:D]

I guess I' m going back to the Complete CSS Guide and read on.
Maybe after lunch. I still have a headache.



bobby -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 12:11:53)

quote:

Will CSS replace Tables?


Actually tables replaced CSS. But more and more developers are returning to CSS as browser support and the CSS standard improve and evolve.

Tables were never intended to be used for layout... they just happen to work well and are easy to use so developers started doing it that way.

CSS is considered by many to be the " correct" method for layout, but it is quite a bit more difficult than using a table (especially when FP has that handy table " wizard" built right in).

The nice thing about CSS for layout is that you have a lot more control over the style of your website... using overlapping layers, for example (z-index), can really create some cool effects. A table can' t do that.

It can be difficult to get used to... but if you try to think of a layer (or <div>) as a single table cell that might help you to wrap your brain around it faster...

Next generation of browsers will likely have better support for CSS positioning... and CSS3 is likely to improve on it as well.

Right after I learned CSS I stopped using tables completely (for layout that is) but now I find that there are some instances where a table is more preferable...

I' d say I' m about 50/50 now... and usually a combination of the two.

</$.02>



Gil -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 14:23:12)

quote:

Actually tables replaced CSS. But more and more developers are returning to CSS


Huh?



bobby -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 15:04:12)

Oh, that' s just me being sleep deprived again... [:j]

Tables didn' t replace CSS... tables have been around far longer... I should have said that tables filled a need that had no better solution at the time.

As Kathrine mentioned, they are intended to be used for displaying tabular data, not positioning. They just happen to work relatively well for both functions.

Tables were adopted by the development community for layout because they' re so easy to deal with and do a decent job of it. And I suppose because before CSS2 there wasn' t a good tool for laying out your pages...

[8|]

Sorry for the brainfade... [&:]



enrightd -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 15:29:14)

quote:

think of a layer (or <div>) as a single table cell that might help


I got my eyes crossed trying to wrap around that.

Iv' e used CSS before for simple FONT and HR formatting, but it seems positioning is a very different technology.



bobby -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 15:45:07)

Yep!

It' s a grizzly little beast...

What I meant was... put this in your CSS: 
.alpha {
width: 200px;
background-color: #000000;
border: solid 1px #c0c0c0;
}


And now this: 
<div class=" alpha" >
<p>Hello!</p>
</div>

Just became a 200px wide black box, with a grey border, in the upper left corner of your page... similar to: 
<table width=" 200"  bgcolor=" #000000"  border=" 1"  border-color=" #c0c0c0" >
<tr>
<td>
<p>Hello!</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>


Only you now have total control over that block from a single source page (your CSS) - You can also add positioning to your layer in CSS to place it in a spot on your page rather than relative to other elements... 
.alpha {
position: absolute;
left: 0px;
top: 0px;width: 200px;
background-color: #000000;
border: solid 1px #c0c0c0;
}



But again... brainfade is a problem for me right now... so if it doesn' t make any sense it' s probably not your fault [:p]

And I can' t guarantee the accuracy of the code... right now the left side of my brain is taking a nap... [&o]



bobby -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 15:49:24)

This was the first article I ever read on CSS positioning...

http://wdvl.internet.com/Authoring/Style/Sheets/Positioning/Toss/toss3.html

Maybe it will excite you like it did me... the learning curve is there, but not as steep as you might imagine.

[8|]



enrightd -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 15:54:50)

quote:

What I meant was... put this in your CSS:


Thanks Bobby, your examples helped alot.
I see the light!!

I' ll try your WEB Link in the morning.
I' m going home.



Thomas Brunt -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 16:41:29)

The vast majority of sites are layed out with tables. A new browser cannot fail to display sites layed out with tables and hope to gain popular acceptance. Just the failure to support a bit of invalid JavaScript doomed NN6.0 to total failure.

More sites will be layed out with pure css next year than this year, but you will also see a ton of sites that use some basic table layout structure but use css instead of the older html attributes to control the contents of those tables. It doesn' t have to be an either/or situation.

Is CSS a better way to lay out sites than tables? Yes. Will css replace tables. The answer to that has been yes for about 5 years. It will certainly replace tables as the years go by, but old habits die hard. It' s not like there' s a title wave comming, and your site is going to be invisible this time next year unless you completely rebuild it from the ground up using css.




caywind -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 17:38:17)

quote:

Tables were never intended to be used for layout... they just happen to work well and are easy to use so developers started doing it that way.
Tables actually don' t work very well for " real" layout work. I can' t lay a large text banner over a graphic with a table. Be very careful using CSS positioning for layout because browser support for this feature stinks. When I was learning CSS positioning years ago, the only program that would display the page properly was (of all things) MS Word6!

That' s why tables have become the defacto layout technique....



abbeyvet -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 17:45:44)

quote:

Be very careful using CSS positioning for layout because browser support for this feature stinks


That used to be so, it is not any more. It is quite possible now to create fully CSS layouts that work in 95% or more of browsers, and to make those sites usable if not pretty in the rest.

quote:

That' s why tables have become the defacto layout technique....


They became the defacto layout prior to the existance of CSS and because for a long time there was such poor browser support for CSS layout. But that is changing, and has changed, a lot recently.

Which is not to say that table layouts are now obsolete, or about to become obsolete, or that using tables to lay out a site is ' wrong' . Tables for layout will work if not for ever then for as long as it is possible to imagine into the future. But CSS for layout is a real and viable option now, and I don' t think that tables are the defacto layout technique anymore, they are just one way.



_gail -> RE: CSS (5/29/2003 19:56:34)

I appreciate the additional insights posted by all regarding CSS. They provide me with a broader, more foundational, view of the css vs. tables positioning " debate," if you' ll permit me to use the word. It' s nice to know that for the foreseeable future we still have a choice.

Does anyone know of a place to find reliable statistics regarding the number of professional web designers and web developers there are in the world today? I use the word " professional" to mean those who get paid for their work. Of those, I wonder how many are fully aware of the trend to move to css and eventually away from tables for positioning.

gail



caywind -> RE: CSS (5/30/2003 2:09:48)

Well, I revisited that tutorial to see what works with positioning these days and guess what? A lot of it does work now!

If you want to see what all of the hullaballoo is about, check this tutorial out...
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/98/15/index4a.html

note: I tested the tutorial out only in the newer browsers, IE6, NN6.2 and IE5 on Macintosh...if anybody wants to know about Konquerer or other Linux browsers just post up and I' ll fire up the Linux box....



MARKA -> RE: CSS (5/30/2003 2:58:16)

Okay, time for me to jump in here and ask a question about css' s. i breifly looked at the totorial on this post. interesting. my question here is using css' s are you still given that neat little feature where when using a table the page will automatically size the table so that you do not end up with side to side scroll bars. if you are using css' s and use the absolute function let' s say and the browswer window is not maximized or the person' s monitor is smaller than normal will the content resize automatically so that the content will fit on the screen and not cause side to side scroll bars.

hope I have phrased that question correctly.

thanks
mark



abbeyvet -> RE: CSS (5/30/2003 5:41:45)

quote:


Of those, I wonder how many are fully aware of the trend to move to css and eventually away from tables for positioning.


I would say most. I am on several mailing lists and visit a number of other forums, and that this is the way things are moving is pretty much universally recognised. I have no idea how many ' professional' designers there are in the world, I doubt figures exist, but from these various places my feeling is that a very high proportion have already moved, or are actively moving, to designing with CSS.

quote:

... automatically size the table so that you do not end up with side to side scroll bars.


Yes this can be done with CSS, but there simply is no quick and easy answer as to exactly how.

Best thing is to visit some of the sites that have sample layouts, with all source available, and see how they did it.

Here are a few that are useful:

http://glish.com/css/
http://www.purpleprodigy.com/presentation/page_layouts/index.cfm
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/


Though once again it must be stressed - you do not HAVE to do this, tables will still work, and unless you have already spent some time playing with these sort of layouts and have a good understanding of how they work, the start of a new project may not really be the best time to start learning something new and then trying to apply it straight away.




bobby -> RE: CSS (5/30/2003 10:11:02)

quote:

if you are using css' s and use the absolute function let' s say and the browswer window is not maximized or the person' s monitor is smaller than normal will the content resize automatically so that the content will fit on the screen and not cause side to side scroll bars.


CSS works pretty well using % rather than pixels for horizontal spacing and sizing... The biggest problem with CSS positioning - IMO - is vertical spacing and positioning...

You don' t have to use absolute sizing for you layers, but it sure makes life easier...

The day all browsers support the overflow: auto; feature of CSS I' ll dance a jig!

[:p]



pageoneresults -> RE: CSS (6/1/2003 3:28:21)

Look Ma! No tables...

[url=" http://www.csstips.com/layouts/3-column.asp" ]3 Column Layout from Blue Robot[/url]

I modified the css to meet my requirements and added the style changing functionality. Simple, but Elegant. Look at the order of the html code. That is the beauty of CSS.



enrightd -> RE: CSS (6/16/2003 16:34:08)

Thomas:

quote:

It' s not like there' s a title wave comming


Title = a descriptive or general heading (as of a chapter in a book)
Tidal = of, relating to, caused by, or having tides

picky, picky, picky.

Sorry



clum1 -> RE: CSS (6/17/2003 12:21:22)

At last! My holy grail! The three column CSS resizable layout - fantastic. Now my life is complete. I hate absolute sized web sites...

cheers

clum1



austizzmo -> RE: CSS (6/19/2003 21:16:20)

heres my input...

i had a page sliced in adobe imageready that contained an iframe. because it was layed out in table format, the iframe decided it was going to shift things around and i ended up with serious alignment issues. after weeks of playing *read: destroying* the html code, i still had no results. a friend of mine suggested that i use css. having never used stylesheets before i turned to google for help. i came up with
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/introduction/index.html
which turned out to be the best tutorial site i have ever been to. i read through the entire guide and when i was done i had a fairly good understanding of how to work with css. i redid my page using css and low-and-behold it works perfectly. (note: css was so easy to learn it took 2 hours to read the guide and about 8 to redo my entire web site.) i still use tables to present information in my site, but for the real layout i use 100% css.

so my answer is about the same as everyone elses, css will replace tables for major layout, but information will continue to be presented using tables.



briesmith -> RE: CSS (6/20/2003 6:28:55)

Layout, tables, positioning is all well and good but what about the basics?

If all the spelling mistakes in the world were laid end to end we still wouldn' t have laid (" lain" would be OK here as well but is a bit old fashioned) the problem to rest. It would still be very confusing for anybody called Layed.

" Master, has it layed there for years?" " No pupil Layed, it was laid some time ago and has lain there ever since." " Will we let it lay Master?" " No, we will let it lie."

The use of the verb " to lay" is one of the really tricky bits of irregular English so apologies to any posters whose first language isn' t English. [:)]



gorilla -> RE: CSS (6/20/2003 6:59:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: briesmith

Layout, tables, positioning is all well and good but what about the basics?

If all the spelling mistakes in the world were laid end to end we still wouldn' t have laid (" lain" would be OK here as well but is a bit old fashioned) the problem to rest. It would still be very confusing for anybody called Layed.

" Master, has it layed there for years?" " No pupil Layed, it was laid some time ago and has lain there ever since." " Will we let it lay Master?" " No, we will let it lie."

The use of the verb " to lay" is one of the really tricky bits of irregular English so apologies to any posters whose first language isn' t English. [:)]


Nu skal jeg og alle anders udlæningererne her i Outfront takker briesmith til sit hjælp. Faktisk jeg har anden sprog som modersmål og så finder jeg at det virkelig " imponerende" [:)] at det er så mange der har engelsk som modersmål at kan ikke går stavning i deres egen sprog .........

Although of course it has to be said that one of the beauties of the English language is that you have to mangle it really badly before your meaning is completely obscured ......... As my friend Fiachra says " English spelling and grammar are so wonderfully inconsistent because it' s a mix of French and German - both of them badly spoken."

On a website, where you, or your client, is setting out your stall, attention to the rules of communication is important - essential in fact. If you fail to use grammar and spellling corectly in that context then you can forget about giving a professional impression. On a BB such as this, however I do not lay so much emphasis on it.

Med venlig hilsen

Karsten

Who is now the deputy spokesgorilla ' cos I believe in social mobility for all alpha gorillas and was delighted to discover that a dark night and a big stick are excellent ways of achieving this ..... muhaha .....

København
20 juni 2003

Postscriptum: The above is not good Danish. It' s " BBSpeak" if I may coin a phrase and would cause any ½ way competent Danish teacher to just give up, and to quote Dorothy Parker, " go all Russian and just sit on a strove howl all day long" [:)][:D]

Just my 2øre [:D]

K



briesmith -> RE: Will CSS replace tables? (7/30/2003 16:11:44)

Dear Gorilla

And worth every penny.



_gail -> RE: Will CSS replace tables? (7/31/2003 9:21:48)

I visited a few websites of major corporations that recently did complete makeovers of their sites. Was about 50-50 when it came to their layout method of choice: tables or pure CSS.

gail



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