Degrading Images in Image Composer (Full Version)

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BeTheBall -> Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/16/2003 16:54:45)

How do I keep my images crisp and clean using image composer? It seems whenever I create an image, it looks great in Composer, but as soon as I save it to my web page, it degrades significantly, becoming less clear and crisp. I use the Save for web option, but still losing quality. Any ideas. (Getting Photoshop is not an option at this time)



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/16/2003 17:00:12)

Hi betheball,

I' m not sure how you' re getting the image into your site but I found that inserting it and saving it from FP always compresses the image further (2k2 defaults to 70% I think). To avoid the additional compression I open my site live as well as the folder where I saved the image. Then I just drag and drop the image into my images folder in FP. FP doesn' t get a chance to mess with it that way.[;)] When I want to insert the image I drag it from the folder and drop it in the page where I want it.

Edit - Paint Shop Pro is a good alternative to Photoshop and costs considerably less. It does a great job of optimizing images (MHOO).[:)]



BeTheBall -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 11:19:49)

Thanks Mike. I will look into Paintshop Pro because I always save my images to the images folder prior to putting them on my page and still the quality is just not up to my liking. Appreciate the tip.



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 11:24:58)

Just curious betheball, when you save the image for the web do you re open it in IC and compare it to the original to see how well the compression worked? I' m making an assumption here, I usually keep the original uncompressed and give the compressed copy a new name.



BeTheBall -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 15:43:08)

I hadn' t done that for a while, so I just did a test. The compression is obviously not working very well because it doesn' t look very good. I am just doing a simple text graphic with a drop shadow. Here is what I got. Look how blotchy the shadow turned out.

[image]local://upfiles/5648/Ig12160.jpg[/image]



bobby -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 16:00:04)

Try saving as a GIF rather than a JPEG

JPEG format should only be used for photographs...

a GIF will (should) give you a much better looking format for other kinds of graphics. Especially those with text.

PNG is even better IMO, but so far not as widely supported as GIF



bobby -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 16:02:57)

quote:

Look how blotchy the shadow turned out.

Something to consider when working with drop shadows... if IC gives you these options (I know PSP and PS do...)

Instead of using a partial opacity for the shadow (like 50% or 75%) use 100% opacity and try using a slightly lighter shade of black (read: dark grey)

It keeps the edges of the shadow from destorting due to the lowerd opacity level.



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 18:47:45)

I am unfamiliar with PaintShopPro but here' s what I do when saving a gif with a drop shadow in Photoshop. When I save the image for the web, I make sure Diffusion is turned on and that Dither is set at between 80 and 100%. I set colors to 64 or above. Photoshop also lets me see what an image will look like at various settings before saving it. Be aware, though, that the higher some of these numbers go, the longer it will take an image to load in a web browser. Seek a good balance between visual appearance and speed.

Regarding the extra compression done by FrontPage that Mike mentions, you can change the compression settings of an image when you save a web page after first inserting a graphic into it. When the " Save Embedded File" dialog box opens, click on the Picture Options button to access and alter the programs settings for gifs and jpegs.

As an aside, while it IS the general rule, I don' t totally agree with my buddy bobby that the jpeg should only be used for photographs (and other continuous tone images). It depends. [;)]

I believe you can download a free 30 day trial version of Paintshop Pro. I also recommend you give Adobe Elements a trial run. It is the baby brother (or is it sister) of Photoshop.

gail



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:35:51)

quote:

Regarding the extra compression done by FrontPage that Mike mentions, you can change the compression settings of an image when you save a web page after first inserting a graphic into it. When the " Save Embedded File" dialog box opens, click on the Picture Options button to access and alter the programs settings for gifs and jpegs.

Absolutely, I just don' t like going through the extra steps.[;)]
quote:

As an aside, while it IS the general rule, I don' t totally agree with my buddy bobby that the jpeg should only be used for photographs (and other continuous tone images). It depends.

I have to agree here too. I' ve done images and tried to save them as .gif and found I can do better as a .jpg with better results (size and quality wise), at least in PSP.[8|]



abbeyvet -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:38:28)

Here I come riding in on my white horse in defense of Image Composer again!

You can save images - especially gifs - of very high quality in Image Composer. But you have to work just a little harder than File>Save as

What you need to do is create a custom palette for the image you are saving. There is a run down of how to do it here:

http://www.pioneeris.net/ashton/IC/customize.htm

And here for saving transparant gifs:

http://www.pioneeris.net/ashton/IC/transpar.htm

(The one thing I tend to do differently from this example is to set dither by to solid, but you can play around with that setting)

It seems very fiddley and awkward at first, but really is quite simple and quick when you get used to it.

quote:

if IC gives you these options .... Instead of using a partial opacity for the shadow (like 50% or 75%) use 100% opacity and try using a slightly lighter shade of black (read: dark grey)


IC sure does.

In the drop shadow effects box click the Detail tab and you get the dialogue box below where you can vary whatever you like about the shadow. (image saved using a restricted pallette of 14 colors in IC!!)

If you are happy with IC and are not primarily a graphics person, I would say stick with it. I use it 99.99% of the time - I love it and it can do pretty much anything that the other fancier and much more highly rated packages can do as far as routing web work goes. It is under rated, under rated, under rated. Am I making myself clear? [:D][:-]

Only thing is...... when you upgrade to XP all is lost, you will no longer be able to run it. [:' (][:@][&:]

[image]local://upfiles/651/Ki20682.gif[/image]



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:42:50)

quote:

Here I come riding in on my white horse in defense of Image Composer again!


LOL!



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:47:02)

quote:

It is under rated, under rated, under rated. Am I making myself clear?

Yes Katherine I think I got the point. I' m a big fan of IC. Too bad MS let it go. I fall back on it all the time, in fact even now I find that I usually do part of what I want in IC (especially if I want to do something fast) and move the result to PSP to do the finish work. LOL[:D]



abbeyvet -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:51:21)

quote:

Too bad MS let it go.


Sad. Tragic even. I keep hoping they will either revive it or that someone else will be allowed to pick it up and develop it. I really strongly believe that with relatively little further development it could be a first division graphics program.



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:55:07)

quote:

quote:

Here I come riding in on my white horse in defense of Image Composer again!

LOL!


I better explain my giggle.

I' ve watched Katherine use this program. She is a master at it. She convinced me it is a quite a superior progam. I used it previously and would still be doing so if it didn' t constantly mess up my graphic file associations. It not only has some of the best filters I' ve seen, but has a great preview window for viewing the effects.

As a photo enthusiast though, which I realize not everyone is or cares to be, Photoshop is for me.

gail



abbeyvet -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 19:58:23)

quote:

As a photo enthusiast though


And how [:D]

You' ll have to come back though Gail, I never showed you what IC can do with photos - there is a world of stuff that many people don' t know about on that level too.

Hey - here' s a thought - challenge me!! Put up a before and after Photo, worked on in Photoshop - see if IC can match it!! [8D]



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:00:32)

quote:

I really strongly believe that with relatively little further development it could be a first division graphics program.

That' s why I' ve been dragging it along with me since ' 98. I hope I never lose the CD[;)]. Even now it still serves a purpose.[:)]



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:04:13)

quote:

Hey - here' s a thought - challenge me!!

Not on your life....[;)]



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:07:35)

quote:

Hey - here' s a thought - challenge me!! Put up a before and after Photo, worked on in Photoshop - see if IC can match it!!


Sheesh! I know when I' ve met my match, my friend. Hey, Mike, you take her up on her offer, okay?!

Let me get a good nights sleep and I' ll think about it, Katherine. No qualms though about coming back to Ireland . [;)][:)]

gail



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:14:26)

quote:

Sheesh! I know when I' ve met my match, my friend. Hey, Mike, you take her up on her offer, okay?!

Gee _gail, you don' t think I' m too bright huh?[;)][:D][&:]



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:18:24)

quote:

Gee _gail, you don' t think I' m too bright huh?


I stand corrected. You gotta be bright if you answer before I ask the question. [:D][8D]

I' m digging up a good photo now.

gail



abbeyvet -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:21:30)

It' s not ME you are challenging - it' s IC, so I take the reluctance to be a recognition of the capabilities of IC.

My forlorn hope is that someone who can influence the powers that be at Redmond will find this sort of thread and MAKE them give the program the kiss of life.



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 20:36:08)

quote:

so I take the reluctance to be a recognition of the capabilities of IC

Not so much as a reluctance to challenge a " Master" . [sm=kiss.gif]



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/17/2003 22:45:06)

quote:

so I take the reluctance to be a recognition of the capabilities of IC.


NO, not necessarily at all!

Like stated many times before in many threads, a program is ONLY a tool. I have no doubt IC will do as well, or exceed, the output of Photoshop (or any other image editing program for that matter) if, and I repeat IF, an individual knows how to use it and becomes proficient doing so.

I apologize, betheball! I read your post and initially thought when you used the words " image composer" that you referenced image editing programs in general. But you were talking about Image Composer. It' s a great program. Learn to use it.

gail



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 14:39:18)

quote:

I never showed you what IC can do with photos - there is a world of stuff that many people don' t know about on that level too.


OK, let' s see what IC can do.

Origianl photo, taken about three weeks ago. A tough one. Has no retouching at all but needs it. It has been only resized and saved for web.

Subject: History Center at the John C. Campbell Folk School, Brasstown, N.C., U.S.A.

[image]local://upfiles/1556/Zw69498.jpg[/image]



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 14:55:54)

quote:

after Photo


Oh, the reason I didn' t put up an “after” picture is because I didn' t want this to appear as a competition. Because you offered as well as piqued my curiosity, I' m simply interested to see what IC can do with photographs.

gail



bobby -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 15:01:02)

quote:

Here I come riding in on my white horse in defense of Image Composer again!

I used to hate IC... couldn' t get anything to look decent in it.

Then about a year ago a member posted his site in the Site Critiques forum... the graphics were fantastic.

I asked him what he used, and he said the only graphics tool he had was IC because it came with FP2K.

I was blown away...

Just goes to show, it' s a poor musician who blames the instrument.

[;)]

I' m kind of eager to see how this PS vs. IC showdown turns out...

Don' t you think that since MS doesn' t support IC anymore that they should just offer it for free download from CNET or somewhere..? [8|]



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 15:15:47)

quote:

PS vs. IC showdown


This is precisely what I personally wish to avoid.

Most people in graphics, photography and related fields, know what Photoshop can do. Few know about IC or it' s capabilities.

I don' t recall MS doing well with most of it' s graphics programs, do you? No printer that I know of uses Publisher; few, if any, use their Photo editing programs.

Wasn' t Beta Max better than VCR? Now the limelight on VCR is gradually dimming.

gail



abbeyvet -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 15:42:41)

I will have a bash.

Must be said though - I have no clue about photgraphs. Which is to say, give me an after and I can make IC do it but my eye for what needs to be done is pure rubbish.

But will be back soon with some sort of an effort!



_gail -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 15:48:55)

quote:

give me an after


One will be emailed to you.

gail



Mike54 -> RE: Degrading Images in Image Composer (6/18/2003 16:37:08)

I have no doubt Katherine will make me look like the rank amateur I am but I couldn' t resist.[:D]
[image]http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/upfiles/2876/Da83133.jpg[/image] First one in IC.
[image]http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/upfiles/2876/Sq47520.jpg[/image] Second one in IC.
[image]http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/upfiles/2876/Qo40496.jpg[/image] Last one in PSP.



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