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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 15:10:49
Wow,
This thread is turning out to be quite a slobberknocker huh?
We' re back to flash vs no flash.
One thing that I must point out to ALL OF YOU is this:
YOU ALL HAVE AGREED.
Yes, I think you guys have missed the point that we all like what flash does, what it is capable of doing, as well as when NOT TO USE IT.
So let' s start from that point.
We all respect flash. Ok
Now, what we' re saying now is that the flash intro on my site is a boog ol, electronic rollercoaster ride that some people cannot read because it is too fast, while others would like to see a way to escape out of, and others are feeling good about.
All of the comments have inspired me to make some changes.
Like I said before, my site, my rules. I keep the flash, but I' m adding skip funtions to them.
Ok, the repetive flash on my main pages.
I can see how the mission and service page are repetive, and I' ve come up with a new design on those, but the sub pages
id
interactive
print
new media
the repetive nature of the header designs are intrical to the message. This is commercial design 101. If you have both an image and a story (text) one (if not both) must engage the reader (web surfer) with the principals of the message. If they don' t go away with your overall image stuck in their heads, you didn' t do much.
That' s image and concrete marketing.
Uhmm, Gil. I hate to point this out to you... but I thought you should see this:
http://www.bacardi.com
I know employees of the Bacardi family. They say that there website is the one of the most succesfull marketing vehicles they have.
I' m not saying that everyone needs this site.
Heck, I' ve got a housewares contract right now with NO FLASH whatsoever, because I didn' t think that the flash would ADD PERCEIVED VALUE to the site or it' s visitors.
Just thought you might like to see the site.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 15:46:56
all right, I see your point and I accept your opinion and your honesty.
That site also happens to be incredibly popular. (Not me, check trendsetters.com or American Marketing Assoc.)
But I didn' t send you to the site so that you could see my interpretation of THE ABSOLUTE COOLNESS OF FLASH. I sent you that site cause flash IS being used, by large corporations (remember our talk on marketing departments?) who' s marketing deptartment made a decision to go this way. Go figure.
But like I said, I' m not defending flash completely, I' m only seeing it' s potential value.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 15:56:20
Gil,
Are you sure on your connection speed?
I' m clocking that bacardi site at 1 second on my T1.
Maybe because I' m closer to the server?
Robert
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 16:01:50
quote:
Are you sure on your connection speed?
1.54 Mbps measures a full T1 to my remote server.
I hit the site - it poped up with a cookie alert - I declined the cookie - it sat for about 15 seconds, opened a second window - I closed the second window and then the main one opened. Took about 30 seconds total.
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Cyprus
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 19:48:27
quote:
BTW Gil did you take a look at that eye4u site? LOL I may have to send a complaint in to Ford for their annoying Flash site
Well I' ve showed at least 10 people that website in the past, and every single one of them was incredibly impressed, with comments like " that' s how I want my website" or " that' s so well done" . That' s exactly the kind of reaction you want out of a potential client. The people you want to impress don' t see that kind of thing every day, so it' s not annoying to them.
All I see here is a bunch of people who think they' re " experts" because they' ve created a bunch of average websites for people. The people at eye4u made that webpage because they knew it would attract customers, and it obviously has if it' s attracted Ford and Warner Bros, companies that probably has dozens of people sitting at a table brain storming all day about what their website should be like. And the same goes for bicardi.
I think some of you are just too set in your ways to understand.
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 20:10:42
Cyprus,
I guess you subject line in this post:
http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/First_real_web_job%25__Pricing%3F/m_140566/p_1/tmode_1/smode_1/tm.htm
may be a clue.
I' ll be the first to admit the first sites I built (' 92/' 93) were full of animated gifs and scrolling java applets everywhere - clients loved them! I was strutting!!!
I also remember a big design firm (don' t remember the name)landing the contract for the Dallas Cowboys site back some years ago at $750,000.00 !. The " clent" must have been impressed. The first real Flash site I remember - the Cowboys have had the site redone and the big design house went Chapter 11.
As I said BEFORE - Flash has it' s place. I' m just not convinced it is approriate for 99% of the companies.
I spent close to 20 years in the advertising biz and saw many ad campaigns that were very inovative and very impresive that never created a dime for the client. Even though the client loved the ads and agreed to the campaign.
quote:
Cyprus:
All I see here is a bunch of people who think they' re " experts" because they' ve created a bunch of average websites for people.
Yep - My " average" web sites paid me a 6 figure income last year. So, I' ll stay " set in my ways" ! Thank you for your input...
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 23:01:36
I' ve got to admit, this string is becoming funky.
But you know what Gil...
I' m still having fun! Even the toe stepping!
Guys, guys, guys, guys!
We' re all here to help each other. Some people make websites one way, and some another way.
Flash can help, or flash can hinder.
Some like it, some hate it. (I' m sorry, I like it)
For instance, Bacardi.
I know the people at bacardi. They do not hire a shop like 2advanced for cool factor only. They do not request 2advanced to make a completely custom (and believe me, very costly) flash application (dj, history book, and mixer, just to name a few) because of ego. They do it because their site is a complete hit with their audience, and expanded there audience, as well as their market share. Which is up about 12% since they launched neverrain.com and relaunched dj.
Then there is the Movado Group, owners of one of the most prestigious lines of fashion and fashion accessories in the world, with offices in Switzerland, Germany, London, New York, Miami, California, Japan, China, Korea and beyond, who make a website that is black and white, straight up HTML, with NO-FLASH, and is about as deep as a puddle. And guess what, that site was a hit too!
No one is right, but no one is wrong. I do know this.
My newest market is the law and finance industry. Lawyers have always been very conservative in there advertising and media. Just look at a classic lawyers business card, black text on linen. But things have changed, and quickly too. Look at the website of broad and cassel or edward jones. High end, advanced graphics, and gasp!! some flash. Before, my media solutions for a law firm was to generate word of mouth and main stream media coverage. I would have never suggested a website, and the lawyers and financiers would agree, up to this year. I have more than one law account or prospect that SWEAR to me that they are gaining more business from the web than from references. And those sites that are professionally made (using FrontPage like our BAMF selves) are retaining viewers longer than those made by office clerks who buy FrontPage and make a theme-based website.
I don' t begrudge any one' s opinion, nor talent, nor particular talent. I don' t think I' m particularly right, nor that anyone is particularly wrong. There is room for all of us, and all of us have room.
Flash is NOT a STANDARD. But it is here to stay.
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Cyprus
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/4/2003 0:04:59
quote:
I guess you subject line in this post:
http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/First_real_web_job%25__Pricing%3F/m_140566/p_1/tmode_1/smode_1/tm.htm
may be a clue.
What is that supposed to mean? I' ve never said I was an expert. I' m still learning, I think I' ve done some fairly good web designing so far considering I haven' t been in this for more than a year.
You can check out this website I made at
http://www.newcomputers.net
It' s still a work in progress and I' d say it' s half done, we no longer get visitors from search engines (a screw up of mine) but when we were getting visitors we got a very good response from customers.
I' m glad you' ve made six figures from web designing, good for you. But anyone that promotes themselves well and is professional can make money in this. I don' t think that' s really an indication of how good your web designing is. But hey, if you think that makes you an " expert" , that' s cool.
< Message edited by Cyprus -- 7/4/2003 12:06:44 AM >
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/5/2003 5:40:39
well, to answer you question Karsten, about why I am creating a link to an intro, and not telling them that " This is what I can do for yo." Because I believe that a website is both information, and an artform.
I wanted the user, potential client, a average veiwer to " experience" my skills instead of waiting to see them. I wanted the site to be an experience. So yes, I unapologetically pushed the intro movie down their throats, and hope they like how sweet it is. If they don' t, then we' re (the potential and me) aren' t designed to work with each other.
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Donkey
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/17/2003 20:00:54
I' m not a professional like most of you guys but in my opinion as a consumer of websites (not literally you understand) flash intros are a waste of time and a big reason to click somewhere else interesting. And I know I speak for the majority - here is my proof.
My company distributes Italian made electrical products in the UK, we have the same name as the Italian company and the .co.uk version of the domain name.
The Italian site has a big flash intro that cost a fortune and tells you nothing about the company, it takes what seems like ages to load even on broadband and even longer to play.
Our UK site was built by me in frontpage with a lot of help from these forums, and it is basically a catalogue site showing as much product detail as possible. We don' t sell direct to the public but we link to our customers who do. The user is only ever one click away from our contact details. My background is in marketing and my simplistic view is that the site should allow my target audience to find out as much information about my products as they need, and as easily as possible. It should facilitate their purchasing decision then lead them to the point of purchase. We are not in the business of providing " content" as entertainment, we are in the business of selling product.
The point of my story (and the anti flash proof) is that in the last year we received only one sales lead from the Italian Site. Over the same period our site has consistently provided our Italian colleagues with an average of 3 good quality leads (worldwide) in every week, and thanks to our basic site they now have new national distributors in 5 countries 3 of which are giving them more sales than we are.
If you search on most of the major search engines using product relevant keywords the Italian site is above us in the ranking. So these people are going on to the Italian site, getting bored to death and leaving. Then they find our site and we get the business. Because there is no Flash on our site.
IMHO Flash intros are to websites as rap is to real music - there' s a lot going on and somebody' s talking but nobody' s saying anything worth listening to and it sure ain' t music!
Well I feel better now I' ve got that off my chest.
Time to sleep now.
Goodnight All.
Peter
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/17/2003 21:12:19
quote:
IMHO Flash intros are to websites as rap is to real music - there' s a lot going on and somebody' s talking but nobody' s saying anything worth listening to and it sure ain' t music!
VERY well said !!!!!!!!!11
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/18/2003 12:30:42
Donkey
Thank you for your input to this thread. I' m busy at work recreating my site based on the info I received here and from other sources. I' m going to post a new thread when that new site is ready.
I' m sorry of your companies experience with a flash website, but since you did not post the site, it' s hard to make a judgement on why it' s not working. One of the first things I can think of is this -
Flash web developers are not THINKING. I couldn' t tell you how many website I have re-made for clients who first went with a flash developer. One of the major problems with using flash is creating navigation using flash.
My experience is that the SE' s don' t crawl flash, especially navigational flash. There are no hyperlinks in them to follow.
Next, many flash developers fall into their own little broadband and t1 trap, their forgetting that the web is STILL mainly dial-up, and even though flash can be made incredibly small, it' s not really worth it to make a 9k flash button when a 2k gif button will do the job.
Flash, I still believe, has it' s place and it' s function. As a marketing person myself (15 years a bunch of coffee) I realize the importance of good storytelling in any marketing piece. I also realize the difference between a site that requires content against a site that requires marketing pizzazz.
I realize that you' ve had your personal experience with flash, and the contributors of this forum have also had experience with flash (and I must admit, poor ones at that.) The one thing that still frustrates me is that it seems you guys are just flat out refusing flash, criticizing it' s use, and criticizing designers that use them. This thread is almost run out, but as I look back, all I see is an argument between two factions, one open to flash, and the other completely against it.
But you guys are not even considering the most important thing of all. Whether or not a site uses flash is irrelevant. The question is, is the site DESIGNED WELL AND CORRECTLY. Flash IS A TOOL, LIKE ANY OTHER. If the job doesn' t require flash, then it shouldn' t be in the site.
The incredibly negative attitude I' ve gotten from this thread was pretty suprizing. I have gotten incredibly GOOD feedback and critiques, don' t misunderstand me, it' s just this negativity and uniformed opinions about flash and the business of the web that has drive me nuts.
quote:
I know the people at bacardi. They do not hire a shop like 2advanced for cool factor only. They do not request 2advanced to make a completely custom (and believe me, very costly) flash application (dj, history book, and mixer, just to name a few) because of ego. They do it because their site is a complete hit with their audience, and expanded there audience, as well as their market share. Which is up about 12% since they launched neverrain.com and relaunched dj.
Then there is the Movado Group, owners of one of the most prestigious lines of fashion and fashion accessories in the world, with offices in Switzerland, Germany, London, New York, Miami, California, Japan, China, Korea and beyond, who make a website that is black and white, straight up HTML, with NO-FLASH, and is about as deep as a puddle. And guess what, that site was a hit too!
No one is right, but no one is wrong. I do know this.
As I quoted above, these are only 2 facts of the billions of websites out there. Some prosper, some die. Most can be attributed to design. The ones that die, with flash or with no flash, were just not designed right. The ones that prosper, with or without flash, were designed correctly.
I am a creative strategic designer, and my experience has granted me the luxury of also being a marketing professional, a print and ad man, and an artist. My customers ask me to give them a solution that will reach their customer and communicate to them. I make those decisions based on my experience and my knowledge, and if the site requires flash to communicate, then it gets flash. If my customer wants flash and I know that it will not communicate or benefit them, then they don' t get flash (or they get some flash against my objections and under protest.)
Donkey, you said your site triumphed and it had no flash. Fantastic, Beautiful, I' m proud of you! That' s what a good designer is supposed to accomplish. But I would scream huzzah' s to a site that uses extensive flash (bacardi.com, neverrain.com, bmw.com) and is a triumph. It' s the design buddy boy, the design. And if your design gets you to where you want to go, then GO THERE!!!
I' m really saddened by some of the responses in this thread. (My own included, I ragged on someone for no reason) And I' m saddened that some of my FrontPage cohorts are so close minded lacking in design fundamentals as well as marketing savvy.
Please guys, do your homework. Join more groups like the AMA (American Marketers Association) CMG (Color Marketing Group) CPA (Creative Professionals of America) Forrester Research, Iconocast. Look at the designs that are drawing people by the thousands -
www.brokensaints.com
www.apple.com (Wins every design award I' ve ever heard of)
Join Drummer Boy.
Read a book on design and marketing.
Keep your minds open, so your wallets will fill, and your customers will love you for all the traffic they get on their websites.
Be ARTISTS! Give your customers art, not politics, and not restrictions. Don' t hold yourself back. Be technically and design savvy, and give them what will service them.
This is my last post to this thread, and I sincerely hope that someone out there can read it and understand. Be a little more forgiving and open your mind and your soul to the world. It' s much bigger than you imagine, and if you could imagine how big it is,...it' s probably bigger than that.
Much love
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Word is bond.
be there.
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/18/2003 12:57:17
quote:
Flash, I still believe, has it' s place and it' s function
Yep. Me too.
quote:
As a marketing person myself (15 years a bunch of coffee) I realize the importance of good storytelling in any marketing piece
Me too - 19 years 
quote:
I also realize the difference between a site that requires content against a site that requires marketing pizzazz.
Here' s where we disagree - ALL site require content. what else is there? A flashy picture/movie and a pretty design are great and important, but without any content useless.
quote:
If the job doesn' t require flash, then it shouldn' t be in the site.
I' ve yet to see (and I' ve asked here and in other forums, with no response) a site that required flash. I just went back to your sute: Great Flash - one of the best I' ve seen - required? I didn' t see anything that required Flash - except to promote Flash.
BTW - I timed my T1 connection: 17 secs to load, no bad, but again 17 seconds.
quote:
www.brokensaints.com What is it all about?
quote:
www.apple.com (Wins every design award I' ve ever heard of) Great example - Wins all the awards from designers, creates a lot of traffic - the company is going under!
quote:
your customers will love you for all the traffic they get on their websites.
For a while.
It' s a business. Trafic doesn' t pay the bills. Bacardi is a good example - lot' s a designer praise for the site, lots of traffic (I' ll take your word for it) - no increase in sales or revenue!
Iam NOT bashing flash - only trying to get someone to show me a site that cannot be as effective without it and where a Flash movie has produced revenue.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/18/2003 14:02:26
I feel like GB senior -
Ok, that was my second to last post.
Gil,
quote:
ALL site require content. what else is there? A flashy picture/movie and a pretty design are great and important, but without any content useless.
You are absolutetly, one hundred percent correct. I fumbled my language on that one. You want to go to a site FOR something. But it depends on what your selling. (All sites, handbills, postcards, business cards are SELLING something.) Maybe your not selling for money, just attention. Maybe your just selling your position. But when your trying to get someones attention, your selling your position.
What I' m trying to say is that the content must be there, but it might be informational content that requires a lot of text to explain, or it might be promotional content that needs images and music get the message across.
Sorry Gil. Thanks for the correction.
quote:
Bacardi is a good example - lot' s a designer praise for the site, lots of traffic (I' ll take your word for it) - no increase in sales or revenue!
Yes there has been. Like I said before, I know people at bacardi, and the bacardi family. They are reporting increases in sales (generally, yes I admit) but they are also very adamant that they have increased sales BECAUSE OF THEIR WEBSITE. They didn' t give me numbers, but they said " even a 1% increase in sales is something you pay attention to, if your quarter is 87 million" they swear their getting more than 1 percent of sales attributal to their website.
If anybody else wants to post, I think that would be fantastic. I' d love to learn more. But I' ll be posting my new site on a new thread, to get a fresh start.
So this really, really truly is goodbye until the next thread.
Maybe not though. As I' ve alread proven, I keep coming back for more
word is bond
< Message edited by rumblepup -- 7/18/2003 2:11:06 PM >
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/18/2003 14:20:38
quote:
What is it all about?
From the website -
Broken Saints is an online graphic novel that uses Macromedia’s Flash to tell a creepy and thought-provoking story. The creators felt that there was lots of ‘entertainment’ on the web, but nothing that really compelled viewers to become involved with the direction of a tale or its characters.
It’s not that the BS crew is diametrically opposed to 3 minute cartoons where things blow up, multiple beheadings are seen, gases are emitted, or someone gets ‘boinked’ – everyone needs a mindless distraction now and then – but they felt that it was time someone told a REAL story, with a REAL message. They also felt that the best way to showcase the epic nature of the tale was to create a deep and compelling site to house it in…rather than a bare-bones one with rudimentary buttons and a viewing window (which seems to be the norm for these types of things).
You’re still here, so it looks like they’re doing their job ;)
Check out the FAQ and do a search on broken saints.
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UMnath
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/18/2003 14:34:16
I googled it and found this article on the first page:
http://www.webbedenvironments.com/v04/04_04.html
Interesting, but basically just rehashes all the points that were made here. Republicans...Democrats, Artists...Engineers, Flash Designers...Non-Flash Designers...can' t the world just get along??? Put simply its a debate for webgeeks, and I doubt it will ever truly be resolved.
Neil
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Donkey
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/19/2003 4:34:30
Rumblepup
I think you missed my point slightly. I am not a professional web designer, I am arguing the case as a web user. The reason I was negative about flash intro' s is that to the vast majority of web users they are a turn off and a great source of frustration. I am sure they can be, like yours, well made and very slick, but my point is that they are like the advertisements before the main movie, everyone wants to get past them and into the real action.
I have nothing against flash animation when used within a site in a useful and informative way, but for intros (and I' m generalising here so please don' t take it personally) IMHO they are always more about corporate or individual ego than making the site work properly.
I agree with you comments about flash navigation, and as an amateur I find that sites which are almost totally flash don' t " feel" right when I am visiting them, generally they seem too slick and choice restrictive for the user.
BTW I only used my own experience as an example and the reasons I did not post site urls are;
1) The site with Flash intro is not my company' s site, it is the property of the Ialian company and I don' t think it is ethical to invite criticism of someone else' s work.
2) Both sites are commercial and advertising in these forums is not allowed.
3) Although my UK site works well, I am well aware of a whole raft of things that are technically wrong with it (mostly through reading other posts in these forums), and I am planning to rebuild it during the next few weeks using CSS which I am currently learning. When I have achieved that (to me) mammoth task I will certainly post the url in this forum and welcome all criticism negative or otherwise.
quote:
all I see is an argument between two factions, one open to flash, and the other completely against it. I have re-read some of the above posts and I think you are wrong here. No one is completely against it, but some of us are against it being over-used in a way that turns visitors away from the site prematurely.
Anyway, as the old man in the dirty raincoat said " to Flash or not to Flash, that is the question..."
Have a good weekend.
Peter
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