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rumblepup
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half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/1/2003 16:38:02
The site is half completed, but I really wanted some opinions.
So go ahead, rip in to it.
www.enefem.com/new
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abbeyvet
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/1/2003 19:16:49
It is visually very attractive but has problems.
I went with the dialup version first - altough I am on quite a fast cable I always do if given the choice. I would find the continuously pulsing yellow thing in the header VERY distracting. Actually I did. It made it almost impossible to read the text as it was constantly catching my eye.
Reason I go with the dialup version? Because I find the boradband version never has anything else to tell me, though it will show me generally a lot of fancy tricks.
But I had a look anyway. It loaded relatively slowly. Just took a look in www.bandwidthplace.com and I am currently connected at 377.45KBS, and I found the loading excessively slow.
Once the Flash loads biy do things speed up! So much that it is quite impossible to say what you do - it all went by too fast. Then I seem to be back at the low bandwidth site again. So all the high bandwidth thing did was show me a movie I did not gain anything from. Though it is very nicely but together apart from the speed.
I really like the Services page header, though again the constant looping of the text is annoying. I think the headers would be way better if they looped once or twice and then became static.
Personally I would lose the big intro. Work on it and then put it in a showcase or something that people who may want Flash work done can see if they choose to.
Bear in mind the typical customer for web work. They are likely to check out several sites before going for the ones they will seek quotes from. While any flash can be interesting the first time you see it, when you are returning looking for specific information, repeatedly seeing it is just a nuisance. The same is true of the headers. The basic images are great and very striking but I think you need to calm it all down a bit.
I remember reading a quote from some really stylish woman (Coco Chanel?) who said the last thing you should do before you walk out the door is remove a piece of jewelry. Less is more. I think that removing a few pieces of jewelry here would increase the style and impact of the site.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 0:50:24
Thanks so much for the input. Like I said, halfway there, and your suggestions are making life easier for me. I have a couple of things on my mind about those suggestions, though.
Flash intro movie versus no flash intro movie. I agree that most intro' s are there to just show off. " LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!' So I designed mine with that message right up in front. No cheatin' . I' m showing off. But I' m a designer, not a strict programmer. Look at 4guysfromrolla. That site is fantastic in it' s functionality, it' s search, and it' s plethora of information. But the site is what it is, made for quick study. My customers want their audience to be captured by the look, feel, taste and emotional connection with a design. My site has to prove to them, and my potentials that I can do that.
The fact of the matter remains that my customers demand a strategic design artist, not a programmer or IT tech. So the website must be designed, and not authored. I have to sell art MIXED with technology. (That' s why I am partnered with an IT/ Technology company.) The fact of the matter is that we live in an image conscience society, and our (yours and mine) customers don' t want a webdesigner or strategic designer to make a solution that looks like they could do it on their own computer.
My current customers, 2 fashion design houses, 1 luxury car distributor, a broadband provider, and many manufacturing (from soft drinks to furniture) and import/export companies, (just to show you the wide audience, I' m not braggin ' cause they pay their bills late like everybody else) all have given me two big thumbs up on the new design. One of the marketing directors wanted to know why I had not taken the time to put something up like this before, because he felt energized and captured by the flow. (Yes, he did say it was too fast, but hey, I never said I was any good, lol) This guy was working with 2advanced on a different project, so I respected his opinion.
I agree with you abbeyvet, on the flash loops on the headers, and the the little muckity mucks that come with the unfinished design, but I have to disagree on the load time. On T1 and Cable, the intro has finished loading at about 3 seconds. On DSL at about 5. On 56k (which I can' t really say for certain, having a T1 at the studio, and cable at home) my load calculator told me 5 to 8 seconds, which I can live with since the text loads first and the images are loading in segments. I feel that the site is between accessible and exclusive based on the load times. Look at 2advanced or Wireframe. They are definitely pre-qualifying their prospects before-hand with their websites. If you don' t have broadband, you ain' t seeing those sites. And Valentine Ad' s is even heavier. Go figure!?!
But believe me, I really and truly see eye to eye with you guys on the design features you told me. I' m working on it, and I hope I can do you guys proud.
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 7:57:05
quote:
I agree that most intro' s are there to just show off. " LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!' So I designed mine with that message right up in front
Didn' t see a message before loading the flash thing?
Anyway, I understand the " I have to sell art MIXED with technology" & " The fact of the matter is that we live in an image conscience society" and I think your Flash is great - IF it were not forced on all visitors, but where those that did want/need to see it could do so by choice, would be a lot better.
I think you have a great start, great design and a little tweaking will make it even better.
BTW - On a T1 here (cache cleared) it took 16 seconds to fully load.
After 20 years in the advertising/marketing biz I can identify with " The fact of the matter is that we live in an image conscience society, and our (yours and mine) customers don' t want a webdesigner or strategic designer to make a solution that looks like they could do it on their own computer. " - It took me years to understand why my mentor taught me " Clients all know what they want when we first meet with them. The hardest part of our job is to get them to realize that what they KNOW is not what they NEED to KNOW."
Good Luck - I look forward to seeing the next version...
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Cyprus
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 12:25:18
For those bashing a flashy web page such as this, I think you' ve been web designers too long. A flash into is basically telling your client " look what I can do" . But what' s wrong with that? As web designers, we see Flash stuff like this all the time, so it' s not a big deal to us. But for a potential client, they could really be impressed, and it could lead to a potential sale.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 14:26:21
Thanks Cyprus, for your defense.
But I have to agree that the other forum members, Gil, Katherine and Mike have very valid concerns. The addition of flash is up to me, and I' m keeping it, but tempered with their input.
I agree with you that I want my customers to be impressed with the artwork on my site, because if I had just put up an informational site with little artwork, what would make them think that I can make their design project look as impressive as they want it to be? The argument here being that " If they can make a site like this, then they can make mine easily."
All of us have to deal with those little itty bitty kiddies out there who grab some templates and sell a website for $50. Then disappear after they create one home page with a animated rubber ducky gif from the Microsoft Gallery. It seems that I' m always explaining the difference between a professionally designed solution against a prima dona. I know all of you have had this conversation after you quote a project. -
" How much? But this kid says he' ll do it for 3 dollars and a donut!"
What can you say to that? I usually have to be blunt about it.
" Sir/ Madam. Go ahead and have the kid make your website. When you don' t know where the ' designer' is, or how to update the site, or where it is being hosted, or why it doesn' t look anything like what you wanted, and no one is visiting the site because it looks like something created on Word, I will be more than happy to help you. "
(purple and orange background, and red text anyone?)
And then there are the complete techno freaks who don' t believe in anything BUT flash, and their websites are cybergasmic electro playgrounds that are hard to navigate and tell no story but " wow, a 3d whatchamacalit!" Between you and me, I love exploring those sites as artwork, but my clients have told me that these design companies always look completely inaccesible to a small to mid-size business. Kind of like having George Lucas take your wedding video, while doing some LSD. Information overload, is the general consensus from the peanut gallery, and unfortunately, the peanut gallery signs the checks.
So yeah guys, the flash stays, but I' m slowing down the intro and rethinking the headers on the subpages. I figured out that the " skip intro function" is just not obvious enough to the casual viewer (The links are right there on top, just go to another page) so I' m popping a skip into the intro.
We have all been in the website design/ design business long enough to come up with our own set of critirea as to what makes a good design. I know just as well as you do that flash doesn' t belong on everybodies website, and that design isn' t about color and artwork, nor is it about form and function.
Flash is old news to us, the designers, and we are all pretty much over it. But guess what? The audience (the website visitors) are not all over it. They have a VERY distinct impression of flash, and that' s where their opinion counts. An asthetically pleasing site retains a visitor longer than one that is not. That is a fact that we use to sell our services, and it' s damn straight true.
I hope this thread stays alive so that when I post the changes, you guys can see it. I' m hoping that with your help, I will make you guys proud of me.
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abbeyvet
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 14:53:50
I am by no means anti-flash. And you are obviously skilled in using it, which is a not a universal truth about those who do.
quote:
I know just as well as you do that flash doesn' t belong on everybodies website, and that design isn' t about color and artwork, nor is it about form and function.
Actually I do belive design is about form and function. The right form for the function is what makes good design good. Sometimes in the case of web design Flash is the right form, sometimes it is not.
quote:
An asthetically pleasing site retains a visitor longer than one that is not.
True, but I would be very slow to equate the degree to which a site is or is not asthetically pleasing with that site' s use of Flash. I daily see very asthetically pleasing and beautifully designed sites that use no Flash.
I am certain you know your market, and as you describe it it is very probably one where the use of Flash is often appropriate. For those customers your site is one that will demonstrate what you do. But you need to be sure it will not at the same time scare away those who don' t want/need Flash, but are potentially good customers. It may be that you have decided to concentrate on the market that will use Flash, and that for some people is a great choice, as there is a big market for it. If you have not though, you want to make that a bit clearer.
One caveat though. Be cautious about being overly affected by compliments from those who are in the same business. Especially those for who work in a similar style and who have similar opinions to yours, they provide the least useful feedback you will ever get, however nice it is to get it. The opinions that matter are the unbiased views of those with money in their pocket who may, or may not, be persuaded to transfer that money to your' s. Only those.
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 15:20:10
Great thread!
Very good comments by rimblepup & Katherine - it' s obvious rimblepup has thought this through and is making his decisions based on experience, thought and sound judgement.
rumblepup, you mentioned earlier one of your clients was a luxury auto dealer - I did a site for a expensive, luxury dealer about 4 or 5 years ago and it was an eyeopener. After three meetings I was awarded the job, at that time they handed me a ' book' from the manufactor' s marketing firm - the ' book' was about 1,000 pages of demographic and pyschographic research into the brands target customer. I was surprised to learn that the target was in a much higher than average income, BUT lagged far behind in computer know how and also in updating their computers. (I expected the income, not the other ) Also, the study pointed out that the target was usually very time oriented and would not wait for a long download. Another thing was that the target, when given a choice of a full color graphic with popups explaing features and a black & white table of features almost always (like 90%) chose the tablular data.
I think far too often this type of information is either not available or ignored in favor of the full color interactive demo. Web site marketing is really no different than convential marketing, except the delivery is more flexible - we can give the visitor the choice of the table or the full color Flash movie. Print ads do not allow us to offer that choice, it' s either or.
On a personal note: I like Flash and am in awe of those can develop it (I have never been able to make it work for me ). But a few months ago I was shopping for a well know europian automobile and found the manufactors web site complete unuseable - dodging cookie after cookie and waiting for pages/movies to load - I eneded up with another american car like the last one my wife had
My .02 worth...
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:00:48
Gil,
i know this thread is going someplace other than " what do you think of my site?" But you know what?
It' s FUN!
I completely agree with your assessment of the different market perception of the luxury car market, and it' s correct. The people who can afford that big ol cadillac car are usually older, less technologically inclined people who will not wait for a website to load and are more impressed with availability than with pretty pictures.
My experience with upper end markets is a little different. Not just luxury cars, but any upper end (expensive) market. And remember, the very large corporations have marketing departments that distill oceans of marketing information into demo' s, and those demo' s often give them a very safe, broad assessment of the market. (I worked for one of those marketing firms, believe me, they crunch the numbers.)
But those numbers are based on one product line, and it' s market placement. It doesn' t help THE DEALER convince the potential that they should by the car, (or sofa, or glassware, or watch, or bathtub) from them. The customer is already VERY informed about the product, and they want it, and they will by it from the distributor/ dealer/ soda shop that best represents itself as a professional establishment that in layman' s terms " doesn' t play around."
So my customers websites or media solutions, (those that carry nationally distributed products, high or low-end.) are based on communicating to the potential the exclusivity or unique selling position of my client.
If it takes color and art, so be it. If it takes information, so be it. If it takes functionality, so be it. But I figure that out ahead of time, and strategically design to that end.
So my website design is based on " LOOK AT WHAT I CAN DO," and I make no apologies for that. I' m just so happy that I have the forum and you, Karen, Mike, Spooky and a multitude of others to help me, and that I can maybe help them, depending if my medication is working that day.
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abbeyvet
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:02:46
quote:
But a few months ago I was shopping for a well know europian automobile and found the manufactors web site complete unuseable - dodging cookie after cookie and waiting for pages/movies to load - I eneded up with another american car like the last one my wife had
That is really interesting, because I think I know what you were trying to find out about!
A friend of mine was having a mid-life crisis and decided to buy a really cooool sports car, the sort he aspired to when he was 18 and at last could afford as a sort of toy. He was looking for good info that would allow him to seriously compare the three options (all different makes) he had in mind.
He is web illiterate - though as rich as Croesus, it was in the serious prices market he was buying. I confidently told him to call around and we would have all the info he needed in no time from the Web.
We did on two models. The third was impossible. We saw movies, great graphics and so on, though not without waiting for ever, but damned if we could get any decent information. He didn' t even test drive that model and bought one of the others a week later.
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:12:16
quote:
It' s FUN!
I agree...
quote:
I worked for one of those marketing firms, believe me, they crunch the numbers.
Most web ' designers' don' t have that background and often miss the point of the research 
And, boy do the numbers get crunched 
quote:
So my website design is based on " LOOK AT WHAT I CAN DO," and I make no apologies for that.
Nor should you...
quote:
If it takes color and art, so be it. If it takes information, so be it. If it takes functionality, so be it. But I figure that out ahead of time, and strategically design to that end.
I do not disagree with that at all. I do believe the ' choice' should be obvious for those wanting the " information" medium.
quote:
...if my medication is working that day.
LOL - As long as I stay under 3 pots of coffee I normally stay fairly coherent...
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_gail
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:13:20
quote:
The people who can afford that big ol cadillac car are usually older, less technologically inclined people who will not wait for a website to load and are more impressed with availability than with pretty pictures.
Oh pla-eeese, give me a break!
Anyway, your design work in and of itself is nice but, imho, flash should be intriguing not annoying. I think yours is annoying.
If visitors are distracted by constant, rapid or pulsating movement and/or sound, they won' t stick around long enough to get the message the site was created to deliver...and I don' t think that' s a good thing.
gail
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Mike54
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:22:07
I certainly have no problems with a subdued use of Flash. I think the images that rumblepup has are first rate. My issue is with the " constant" motion. I think as Katherine indicated that one, or if you must, two loops through the action is more than enough to get the point across and again, as Katherine indicated, you can always present it as part of the portfolio if the visitor wants to see more of your skills.
It seems to me that the site has been well thought through and is presented very professionally. It is after all a " media" site so one has to expect the presentations to contain some flashy content. I definitely didn' t want to come through as " bashing Flash" .
Post again when you' ve done your touch ups rumblepup, we' ll give it another go through. BTW at home now and get the error posted above repeatedly when digging into your site. (IE 6) on cable so no problem with download speed.
ps - Cyprus, I' m a Quality Manager, I just come here to hang out with some of the best people its been my pleasure to meet.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:28:43
Gail,
Tell me how you really feel. C' mon don' t hold back.
I agree that my flash is annoying, cause that' s what I' ve been told so far. I got the picture.
Hey look, I' m not in this world or in this business to be everyone' s cup of tea, that would be living fake.
But I don' t believe in BRUTAL honesty, nor do I believe in hurting others feelings because the truth hurts.
Thank you for being honest, and thank you for being a part of my small thread. I' m sorry I annoyed you, but I' m really sorry that you felt you had to be on the BRUTAL side of the truth.
We' re not put on this earth to be friends, but we don' t have to stab each other in the ear as were racing for the finish line either.
If your better than me, proove it, and I will humbly shake your hand and tell everyone that your better than me. But you gotta proove it to me first babydoll.
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Juxtar
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 16:59:08
Just a few notes:
The volume for the intro was pretty loud. I have music and regular sounds going on in my cube, and this was way up. Also, I didn' t see a way to mute the sound or even skip the intro.
I think the intro was very cool and visually stimulating, it may be a bit much as the others here have said. I' ve used flash intros (never that neat though) to some of my sites, and the marketing people love it, but they usually make me creat a pop with the flash intro. That way it gives people an option of what they " have" to see.
Also as far as speed of the text in the intro, it is fast. While you and I think it may be fine, I' ve been asked repeatedly to slow my stuff down especially text.
I love the blue ball that floats, very nice! And the top banners with the kid that " shakes" , and the subway hand, nice visuals. My suggestion would be to only have the " effect" run three or four times. Also It' s hard to concentrate on reading the text. I don' t think it' s the flash above it, but I can' t focus (maybe it' s my ADD).
And last...the nfm.nextfuturmedia in the upper left. I originally thought that it was a website link, till I saw the mailto: code in my status bar. I would clarify what it' s purpose is.
Nice beginnings...Good luck.
Hope this may be helpful to you.
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 17:10:41
gail,
I sincerly aplogize for my outburst. You where being honest and I was being pathetically defensive. Too much caffeine today.
I apologize on this thread to you personally, and to anyone who did not appreciate my comments to you.
It is not an excuse, and I do not expect your forgiveness, but I promise not to be short like that again.
Robert
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rumblepup
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 17:27:59
Yeah I noticed, but the redesign is on it' s way.
Again, (boy do I sound like a sissy man) thanks everybody for their posts. I think this thread has been really educational for me.
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_gail
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/2/2003 17:59:00
There is no need to apologize rumblepup.
I' ve used the term " annoying" frequently with reference to flash and no one ever expressed offense. Had I known it would be hurtful, I would never have used the word. Neither did I mean to appear curt. I was uncharacteristically brief in my response because everyone before me provided such sound and profound advice that I could add nothing. I simply replied to your request for opinions.
Hey, it was worth it. I haven' t been called " babydoll" in a long time. But honestly if you will, I prefer to be called gail.
We all recognize your talent; just trying to opine how to position it best. Everyone here, including me, wants your site to be the best that it can be.
gail
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_gail
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 10:19:20
quote:
When I post the new web, should I post it here, or on a new thread?
Six of one, half dozen of the other. Though if I wanted a fresh start, I' d probably begin a new thread, which I have done on occasion.
gail
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Cyprus
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 13:32:04
Jeez guys I would hardly call his Flash annoying. To most people (who aren' t web designers) it' s eye catching and stylish. Trust me, a lot of clients would be very impressed by something like that. It does need some work, the " point" needs to be more apparent on the front page, but I' ve given the benefit of the doubt because like he said, he' s HALF done. But again, the flash animation would be very impressive to a client that wants a website that is hip and flashy, and can seperate you from a web designer who' s page is dull and boring.
And Gail, I' d be curious to see some of your work...
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 13:50:49
quote:
I would hardly call his Flash annoying
" You" might not...
quote:
a lot of clients would be very impressed by something like that.
True...
quote:
the flash animation would be very impressive to a client that wants a website that is hip and flashy
Again, true...
Those clients are the ones trying to figure out why their " hip and flashy" web site doesn' t produce results. It' s no different than producing print ads or TV/Radio spots - the client may be the one paying the bills, but he/she is not the target audience.
<opinion>
I' m not saying Flash doesn' t have it' s place. A site promoting a movie for instance. But for 99% of the businesses on e the WWW it is nothing more than ' eye candy' and only serves to promote the site owner' s designer' s egos.
</opinion>
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Cyprus
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 14:19:02
quote:
Those clients are the ones trying to figure out why their " hip and flashy" web site doesn' t produce results. It' s no different than producing print ads or TV/Radio spots - the client may be the one paying the bills, but he/she is not the target audience.
Actually, it' s not like TV/Radio Spots. All the flash is is a presentation to a potential client saying " look what I can do" . If he shows a potential client websites that aren' t flash and are very professional, along with his flash presentation, I' m sure they' ll be impressed. I think some of you guys are completely missing the big picture. Jealousy?
Look at a company like http://www.eye4u.com . They started with just some really neat flash animations, and now they have clients like Ford. Again, if you have a chance to show off, do it. But it obviously shouldn' t be at the expense of content or functionality.
Don' t get me wrong, I' ve never designed a website that used flash because I' ve done ecommerce websites that had no use for them. But down the road I probably will just a little extra ammo when trying to win over a client.
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_gail
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 14:34:17
quote:
And Gail, I' d be curious to see some of your work...
Cyprus, you are more than welcome to take look at my web design work and the two articles I ' ve written for Outfront any time you wish.
gail
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Gil
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RE: half done, but i really wanted opinions - 7/3/2003 14:45:39
quote:
I think some of you guys are completely missing the big picture.
And what (in your opinion) is the big picture?
quote:
Jealousy?
Of the talent to build flash movies? I wish I had the time to learn, but no, not really jealous.
Of business? No, I have all I can do in a 70 hour week 
quote:
If he shows a potential client websites that aren' t flash and are very professional, along with his flash presentation, I' m sure they' ll be impressed
You' re still talking like the client is the customer. The client is your customer. The client' s customer is the one that counts!
As I' ve said before, I think Flash is cool. I' ve seen some that really amazed me. I think rumblepup did a great job on his. But, I' ve yet to see a commercial web site that would not be just as effective, do a better job of getting the message across and be a better site without Flash. I' m still looking...
_____________________________
Gil Harvey, 1947-2004
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