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Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you: how do they know?"
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Thomas Brunt
Posts: 6214
Joined: 6/6/1998
From: St. Matthews SC USA
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Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you: ho... - 7/15/2003 13:46:07
I lost what could have been a very good client the other day because OutFront did not appear trustworthy. I asked the prospect how that could be so and then got permission to reprint excerpts from the response. This individual requested to remain anonymous.
" Several other sites are selling products that you claim as your work. The BBB has never heard of you, the COC (Chamber of Commerce) from what I could find has never heard of you, etc. Thus i.e. typical of Internet scamming businesses. With being in a legitimate/professional business, if in fact that is the case: do you want to limit your business to only those that personally know you? Or do you want to solicit and bring in new customers that will trust that you are honest and in business, thus spend their money with you?"
I have to admit that I never thought of OutFront in terms of local marketing. The Chamber of Commerce held no interest for me. I never thought about it in terms of establishing credibility as an honest business. I' ve thought about the Better Business Bureau before, but I never got around to it. I have always been very focused (from a design propspective) on gaining the visitor' s trust, but it' s been years since I' ved thought about it from a business perspective.
It' s clear that I have not yet done all that I can or should do to make it clear to visitors that OutFront is an honest business.
So here is the discussion question. What all can and/or should a commercial web site owner do to assure visitors that her/his site is a legitimate business?
t
< Message edited by Thomas Brunt -- 7/15/2003 1:51:14 PM >
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erinatkins
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From: Mechanicsville VA USA
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/15/2003 14:02:49
Tom,
In all honesty I consider you a trustworthy business & I have never felt any qualms with buying products from your site.
A site being linked to the BBB - does not get any extra business from us. You have to pay to belong. As long as you do not get many complaints you are listed as being ok. We have dealt with a few companies being linked to BBB that did not meet our standards.
You may want to consider having more customer testimonials about your services & products. You might also want to list people that are willing to give you references. (You can list me as one)
I have always felt you stood behind your products & services.
Erin
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All Hail Great Spooky - Master of the Outfront Forums. He can make you or break you.
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Cyprus
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/15/2003 17:57:51
I don' t think you have to do anything to be honest. I think this type of incident is very rare. I mean, I recommend anyone to join the chamber of commerce because if used right you can generate tons of business leads from it, and new customers from within the chamber of commerce.
But I don' t think the BBB is that important. Although for a lot of customers they would feel more comfortable doing business with a BBB member. But BBB is a business themselves, they just charge money to be in their " group" . They have no authority over anything. It' s almost unfortunate that some people will use that to measure the quality of a business.
I think most people will look at this website and think it' s reputable without all the little logos from other companies telling them so.
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Doug G
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From: SoCal
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/15/2003 21:01:43
Without knowing the goals of a particular business, it' s hard to say what exactly is necessary. I' d be somewhat concerned about the " Several other sites are selling products that you claim as your work" statement, but otherwise if I look through the yellow pages for my town (about 30K population) I suspect no more than 5-10% of the business listings are members of the Chamber or BBB. I know I' m not, and for me it doesn' t matter since I don' t have one customer in town anyway :)
quote:
It' s clear that I have not yet done all that I can or should do to make it clear to visitors that OutFront is an honest business.
I just wandered in here one day, and I have never, never felt any " scam" vibes from this site. I have fairly good antennae too :) Perhaps that one potential client just got burned somewhere else recently.
I was searching for an asp-enabled web host in 1999 and stumbled across my current host from an Alta-Vista search. They are out of state, I have no clue if they are BBB and/or Chamber members (probably are, they are quite large now), I just went off a couple usenet posters comments they were good. It turned out they are a company that' s a pleasure to do business with, much like I suspect Outfront is (nope, I' ve never bought anything here yet <g> )
You can have all the credentials in the world and still be a crook. After all, I bet Enron, MCI, Adelphia and others were all BBB and Chamber members.
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Reflect
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 7:31:56
Hi Tom,
For us, being in a niche business, we just joined the main organization for our niche market. This held a lot more weight than BBB could ever do.
Brian
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Thomas Brunt
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From: St. Matthews SC USA
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 9:55:49
When I look back on how some of the template reseller arrangements I' ve made work out in the long run, it' s clear that I (and a few others) have created some confusion in the marketplace about who actually built what. I intend to address that in the coming months.
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xeerex
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 10:10:13
Thomas...First let me say that you are about as " legitimate" a business as any I' ve encountered. No, I am yet to purchase anything, but if the need arises I would have no qualms about sending my credit card over. After all, your newsletter is one of the very few that I actually read. Good job and keep it up.
For the rest of us, we need to realize that we have a different perspective. When I " qualify" a site or web business, I look at the overall layout of site. Is it professionally done? Are there a bunch of annoying pop-ups/unders? Are their graphics well optimized? However, many of the decision makers don' t have that perspective. They are more worried about the bricks-and-mortar part and rightfully so. Everyone hears about the .dot disasters and the " fall of the Internet" from the news media, which by and large has nothing to do with 80% of what happens on the Internet. That is from a lack of understanding and comprehension of technology by the majority of people that transact business. Sure, us " geeks" know a lot, but I have had to train untold numbers of intelligent business people on what a domain name really is or what happens when they launch the browser. Its no different than computers in general. From that perspective, we are the IT department and the clients are the Betty-Sue end user that can type up a Word document.
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Webmaster in Perpetual Training
Xeerex The Wizard
aka Rex Moncrief
Web Design / Web Hosting / Graphics / eCommerce
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dgrant004
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 10:52:08
Well, lots of great points. My two cents- though based out of New Hampshire, the vast majority of my work is not local, in fact I have very few local clients.
Though local Chambers are great ways to meet local businesspeople, I view my time better spent working on " marketing to the world, not marketing to my neighborhood"
In terms of the BBB, rest assured, there are sites out there today flying a BBB logo that have done nothing more than copied the logo from a participating company. Blatantly wrong.
I have re-read the comments that Thomas posted. I don' t deem them to be derogatory to OutFront, but more a statement of concern that the visitor wants
to be sure that he is dealing with a legitimate entity, not specifically OutFront.
Always one to live " in the solution" , we are talking about establishing trust with prospects that, in all probability, we will never meet. What has worked very well for me is to start with nothing short of professional dialogue from the get-go. If there is even a bit of client hesitancy I make the offer of providing a number of references. An interesting point, better than half of those new clients who I provide references to ever contact my references. Just the fact that I am willing and able to provide them seems to be enough.
Time to get off my soapbox.
David
www.ReWritables.net
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leslarson
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 11:05:33
Well, Tom, I gotta tell you, I think you missed out on a great opportunity to have a truly miserable experience. :)
Serious, though... I don' t know know you personally, we' ve never spoke (heck, this is the first time I' ve even posted anything... hope I do it right), yet I have spent several hundred dollars with you, buying templates.
Since 1989 (when I started my business), I' ve been involved with CoC *once*, and found that it didn' t make any difference to my business, I think mostly because 99% of the population really has no idea about technology, and can' t appreciate what goes into a solid, honest tech business.
Word of mouth and modest advertising has been my friend. Potential clients who are really interested in being helped will call references, ask good questions, etc. I have a large, extremely loyal customer base because they get excellent service.
In all these years, I' ve only had one person ask if I was an MCSE (I' m not) and didn' t even want to talk to me because of that... I don' t miss her!
I do have a rule: If the potential client is going to start ANY conversation with stupid things like " With being in a legitimate/professional business, if in fact that is the case" then they are going to be someone else' s problem. My intentions and integrity are not up for discussion... I have found, almost without exception, that untrusting people are untrustworthy themselves, and no amount of money is worth putting up with their nonsense.
Just my opinion.
Les
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macvsog
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From: Orange, Ca. US
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 11:20:45
Good Morning Tom!
What a crock! The BBB & CofC are after your buck! They have provided us nothing in the past that is why we dumped them years ago! Many of our e-commerce clients are doing GREAT business and have no ties what so ever to either group and their clients are extremely happy with their purchases and service. Hell 99% of the businesses we purchase from on the internet do not have either logo and we love doing business with them. Don' t worry about it Tom!
Best results are from word of mouth from your clients and how they feel about your company and your service.......
Sounds like a rep for one of the groups or an attorney trying to stir the ole hornets nest and/or get your membership fees..........
You and your company are nothing BUT PROFESSIONAL and we will continue to do business with you.
< Message edited by macvsog -- 7/16/2003 11:25:36 AM >
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ezin1018
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 11:27:42
Thomas,
Our experience has given you trust and confidence. However, I agree that there is a need for a kind of CoC of BBB for Internet businesses in general.
If I shop at eBay, or buy used books at e.g. Barnes: I can always see the " status" of the seller and I can sometimes see some replies from previous clients.
I do shop online (as far a Russia) and if I start with a new supplier, I always start with a low purchase, to see and test.
My experience is that a ' regular' business, member of CoC and BBB with a good reputation there, is NOT always a good company to do business with online! (Shipping costs unclear, products out of stock, different images online than the product, no shipping out of country, some creditcards not accepted, long delivery times, checking email once a week, having only one email address for the entire company, etc. etc.).
Again, I see a purpose in an Internet CoC/BBB...
Although ' between you and me' it is not necessary!
Frank
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awasson
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From: Vancouver BC Canada
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 12:32:51
Hi Thomas,
I' m of the same opinion as leslarson, macvsog as well as pretty much the rest of the crew. I also find that suspicious people are the most untrustworthy folks to deal with anyway and a big pain in the butt!
Sorry that person didn' t buy a template from OutFront, but the pain and disruption caused by one individual isn' t worth the sale. Even if they were going to purchase a hefty number of templates, add-ins, Spooky Products, etc... it would end up causing more hastle than it' s worth.
It doesn' t happen too often but every now and again we get someone who doesn' t trust us or our capabilities. I say, " Oh well... See ya" .
You keep doing what you' re doing and they' ll either wise up and realize that you' ve been in business for a while and will continue to do so, or you' ll never see them again. Either way... You win!
See ya,
Andrew
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Richard Dudley
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From: Butler, PA
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 18:25:41
quote:
Somthing like this?
This was pretty much going to be my suggestion. Not just the stamp, but a good explanation of what it takes to get one.
Thawte has very rigorous paper checking, and once you' ve gone through it, your stamp is a matter of record. They are, however, very slow and sometimes difficult to work with.
The GeoTrust certificates check electronic databases of companies, and issue a scertificate when they can confirm your details.
In either case, you muct have papers filed with the Secretary of State in which you are incorporated, you must have paid your taxes, etc. You might even check Dun & Bradstreet to see if you have a report available (www.dnb.com)--if you' re listed there, you' re legit (not being listed doesn' t mean you' re not, though). Here be you:
http://express.dnbsearch.com/compInfo.asp?callback=yes&source=lookup&compName=Thomas+Brunt%27s+Outfront&key=123189362&DunsCountry=US&foldertype=10
Some of this information should be enough to convince anyone you' re legit. Make sure they can find it.
P.S.
Don' t sweat the loss of a sale. Nearly every day I make sales to people I am convinced shouldn' t be allowed near the Internet, and probably never hear from more of the same.
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wattle
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/16/2003 20:36:56
quote:
What all can and/or should a commercial web site owner do to assure visitors that her/his site is a legitimate business?
FWIW, as a non-commercial web site owner and a never-want-to-be-commercial web site owner, when looking online to purchase anything I always go to the ' Contact' page first. What I like to see is a real address (not a post box), a telephone number (including international dialing details), a fax number (if applicable) and email address(s). Along with this it is good to see any associations the business belongs to, but not totally necessary. I will, and have, telephoned online businesses prior to making a purchase and will not hesitate to call overseas. I' m always suspicious if there is no telephone number BUT I can indeed understand why a number would not be on a site. If there is no number I try to look it up through telephone directories - not always possible - or email the site for further contact details if the product is something available at that particular site only and a ' must have' . I like to see as many contact details as possible along with some brief explanations regarding the contact options.
I really do not pay much attention to testimonials unless they can be backed up with real contact details for those who have written testimonials.
Just my 2 cents as an ordinary internet user 
Thomas, in relation to OutFront in particular, I too was a bit confused about your templates being available on other sites as I did not (and still don' t really) understand about reselling agreements etc ...  From browsing the Web Business Matters at this Forum I gather it' s a common thing - but most of the threads on web marketing etc are way over my head.
BTW, I have made a purchase from OutFront and will do so again in the future with no hesitation whatsoever 
Wattle
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Anyone who says that they can contemplate quantum mechanics without becoming dizzy has not understood the concept in the least. Niels Bohr
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awasson
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From: Vancouver BC Canada
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/17/2003 0:04:13
I just had to make sure our phone number was on our contact page...
I agree whole hartedly re: looking at the contact page and having a good look at the credibility of the business. I like to have a phone number just in case I need to talk to someone, and not just voice mail.
We pulled our fax number from our site and subscribed to a new fax number because ours was so well circulated by fax marketers. Now we never get garbage faxes. Saves us a bundle on fax cartiges and paper.
The Dun & Bradstreet lookup is awsome. I' m going to look into putting a link to it from my site (maybe) We don' t sell anything stricktly online. Our biz usually requires a few meetings and exchanges first, but it' s nice to be able to have a 3rd party say " Yup, we' ve heard of them" .
Cheers,
Andrew
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Larry M.
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/19/2003 18:51:31
Tom,
I' m one of those honest people who knows he' s honest and assumes others do as well. Your post is invaluable in the sense that it has caused me to re-think the " why should other people know I' m honest?" part. The unadulterated fact is they really don' t have any reason to unless they have actually met me - something that' s fared well for me for 15 + years in the real estate business because the transaction is typically face-to-face partnering.
The web business isn' t, in most instances, SO a natural dot.distaster potential web client mentality is understandable. In my particular case, I only want to reach a limited geographical area (my 50,000 +/- community) so any credibility I can establish before hand in web/print advertising is bound to help. Joining the local chamber (Easley) and print advertising that I am a 20 year resident of the community are two things I hadn' t considered doing before your post but certainly will now.
Thanks for expanding my understanding in an area that I had previously taken for granted but, without knowing about it, could well have spelled the difference between failure/success as I transition from real estate to web design in the next two years.
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Larry M.
"Money talks only when it's a large amount."
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awasson
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From: Vancouver BC Canada
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/19/2003 20:27:05
Definitely some food for thought.
I did some looking over at Dun & Bradstreet and found some info about using their logo on your site to verify your existence. More info HERE
Unfortunately it costs about $249. For me it' s not really much of an issue but if you figure you are loosing out on some serious business $249 is a drop in the bucket and would be money well spent.
Cheers,
Andrew
< Message edited by awasson -- 7/19/2003 8:29:10 PM >
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espinja
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/21/2003 10:52:40
Thomas,
In your anonymous prospect' s defense, I' ll bet his cynicism/skepticism has very little, if anything, to do with you/OutFront. In fact, I' ll bet his disposition grew out of past experiences with less-than-trustworthy businesses. He sounds very cautious, which makes your job more challenging while you build mutual trust. But the bright side is, you now know that he is smart and aware, which makes for a great customer if you can win his business.
You know, it' s hard to blame him, or anyone else these days. You just can' t be too careful...
But, I agree with everyone who has eluded that registering with the BBB and your Chamber of Commerce is a waste of time/money. After all, they don' t know you, anyway.
So... What to do, what to do..? That' s easy... Give him exactly what he needs, but from somewhere he would never expect it to come from. Here' s my tactic:
The first time I meet with a new, potential client, I bring FOUR THINGS, and nothing else:
1. A letter from my bank
2. My CPA' s contact information
3. My lawyer' s contact information
4. A $100 bill
Without giving specifics, my bank confirms that my business is financially stable, and here for the long run
My CPA will cooperate with an audit/verification and work with an external reviewer to open up the books
My lawyer will confirm that I am not a party in any business-related lawsuits
The $100 is for his lawyer, CPA, or himself, for time spent communicatng with my own bank, lawyer, and CPA.
Some of my clients have taken the $100, others have not.
But almost all of them are astonished by my behavior, sometimes speechless. And most of them agree to let that $100 pay for my last hour of services. At the end of our first project together.
That $100 becomes my Holy Grail, but more importantly, it is a KILLER metaphor, a symbol of the all-too-elusive " project closure" we all dream about reaching in every project.
Your clients have fears, doubts, and worries just as we do. So rather than trying to sell yourself and " get the projects," make it very easy for the people HE trusts most to check up on you; his own lawyer and CPA. Who could possibly be a better reference than they can be?
Don' t wait for him to ask you for references. Provide those up front, and without strings attached. After all, one doesn' t survive long in business by being careless, and our potential clients are justifiably cautious. Show your respect for his need to be diligent, by giving him what he needs to feel comfortable with you. Be sure you do it, right then and there, during that first meeting.
Most people won' t notice that you have yet to discuss the work to be done. But later, when they realize this one thing, they will appreciate the fact that you didn' t try to force them into high-pressure sales or commitments. That' s DEFINITELY worth $100, in my book...
Of course, you must remember that not all clients are the same. Some will like this approach, others will be offended by being handed a $100 bill (feels like a bribe, even though it isn' t). So, remember that it' s only one of hopefully many magic potions in your bag of tricks. The key is in identifying what drives your customer, as early and as accurately as possible.
Hope this helps..! And, I apologize for rambling on for so long.
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erinatkins
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From: Mechanicsville VA USA
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/22/2003 9:56:40
This post & all the responses have really made me think about this topic & it was a very good question.
A prospective client does not know you & they are taking a big risk.
If they saw your add in the phone book & they come in to your office - you can show them your work & offer them some referrals. You are basically selling your self. If you can present yourself well - you can normally make the sale.
Other times people hear about you from your clients & this can normally be your be your biggest salesman. A happy client is reassuring to other people.
Than you have the skeptical client who has either been burned or want more information. If they have been burned before - you have to reassure them more or give them a trial period or guarantee.
The suggestion by espinja was a great example. How can you not feel secure if someone does this:
quote:
The first time I meet with a new, potential client, I bring FOUR THINGS, and nothing else:
1. A letter from my bank
2. My CPA' s contact information
3. My lawyer' s contact information
4. A $100 bill
I think the above or something similar would be great for some potential clients.
I think if someone knows you stand behind your work & that you have been doing this for x number of years - it should reassure them.
I think there will always be a few people that unless you do x, y & z - they wont be happy.
quote:
The BBB has never heard of you, the COC (Chamber of Commerce) from what I could find has never heard of you, etc. Thus i.e. typical of Internet scamming businesses.
Part of me wonders if the above person mostly deals with the BBB & COC and unless you were a member of the above - he wouldn' t deal with you. I have gone to some meeting of COC & they do have a sales pitch to join. However they can refer business your way.
The BBB I have a personal problem with them. I have had bad experiences with a few companies that were BBB & complaints were not handled well. When I have dealt with a non BBB company I felt they stood behind their services better.
I think networking can help if you are involved in some groups that are related to your services.
However I think overall we need to be our own best salesperson & this post should make us all think - How can we reaasure other clients?
Erin
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All Hail Great Spooky - Master of the Outfront Forums. He can make you or break you.
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Larry M.
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/23/2003 6:01:01
quote:
However I think overall we need to be our own best salesperson & this post should make us all think - How can we reaasure other clients?
This is very perceptive and also goes for other thoughtful comments on this subject.
As someone involved in direct sales for over 20 years - the last 15 in Real Estate - I can tell you the very essence of sales involves removing barriers to the transaction.
Bank, CPA, Business/Personal references, Chamber membership, etc. may not get you the business per se, BUT they do serve, individually and collectively, to remove barriers between you and your prospective web client. In my opinion, distancing yourself from your competitors in positive ways, using these and other marketing tools, exponentially increases your chances for success.
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Larry M.
"Money talks only when it's a large amount."
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espinja
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/23/2003 10:01:51
Wow..!
:)
Priceless thoughts and opinions, and so many nice compliments, to boot..!
I wish I had more time to absorb these points of view and suggestions, but I' m getting swamped with couple of important deadlines... I' ll be lurking for a short time, but, one way or another, I will read every entry in these forums...
You have a great group here, Thomas... I' m very fortunate to have found you..!
Be back soon..!
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mickinspain
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/23/2003 10:51:58
A very difficult thing trust, I ran a locksmiths for 20 years and got to smell the rats that wanted me to open a...door, car, safe etc. especially those who had the ID needed inside. I assume this was more than a $25 template. Although classed as a newbie on these forums I purchased off you years ago, I even messed up several templates without having a backup and you replaced then foc. Lunch clubs, breakfast clubs, COC are only there to make money, there is no such thing as a free lunch. What a punter wants is some assurance that his/her money is safe, the goods are yours to sell and that there is a warranty/after sales service. ' Which' have an on-line stamp of approval for traders, perhaps now is the time for a web-design - web template reseller - webmaster. chamber of trade on line. Maybe this is the premier place for it to start, I' ll bung in $10 a year to belong.
This is a lunchclub, but as I said there is no such thing as a free lunch, its not my turn to cook yet, but I know one day I will cook lunch for the outfronters, meantime I just get up for seconds.
Mick
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tinaalice
Posts: 98
From: Stockport, Cheshire. UK
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RE: Discussion Question " Unless someone knows you... - 7/24/2003 0:04:59
It amuses me that the person who complained in doing their research you were not listed in the usual places to check legitimecy (an offline setup apparently) did not bother to do research where you have your business ie the net. Did not look at the whois to see how long you have had your domain, did not look at the wayback engines to see cached views of your site. Did not visit your site and so the forum as a guest and question the people there. It also amuses me that most designers cater for local areas when the net is the net is the net ... considering that' s the business at hand I can' t fathom that more designers don' t design ' long distance' . As for using a set of templates that everyone else uses I don' t agree with that but the potential client was too stupid to realise that' s what you sell.
It also amuses me that they would buy a set template ... they can get that from FrontPage itself. Just because your' s are ten times better does not make them any more ungeneric ... once it' s been used once ... it' s just not the same as having an orginal looking site, but that' s me people want to make a fast buck in presenting themselves (others not you .. your team designed them to begin with). If your going to have a design business it behooves the people that are buying your design packages to note this fact on THEIR websites and not tout them as theirs... some simple research would have shown the ' potential client' that the designs orginated here not elsewhere. If I were to setup in business I would sell orginal work and point to the generic templates as a quick fix stating that' s what they were ....
I agree you need to make it clear your selling generic templates and if you do custom design that should be highlighted. This person was never a potential client ... they were only ever going to entertain anyone listed in bbb or coc and will continue to do so, they also sound like they were going to be a pain in the butt your well rid of the headache... but it did serve as a potential critique of the way you present your business so I' d thank them for that and point them to this thread, teach them to do some wider research!
Tina
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