www.edinphoto.org.uk

This is my first attempt to build a site. It is large, and I'm still adding to it.

I'd welcome comments, both on the style and content.

Thank you.

Great site! I love B/W photos. I remember one thing from photo 101 about matting and displaying B/W. Color gets in the way of content. The rule was light gray mats with B/W. The bright colors distract from the photos. One idea would be to take old photos and use them as buttons. Erase the photo and keep the border as a frame for the text.

Thanks for sharing your wonderful site

It seems to be pretty well organized, and I enjoyed looking at some of the pictures.

You do need to look at your home page in Netscape. The text and buttons do not line up. Frankly, I'm not crazy about your buttons. Not only are the colors distracting, but once inside the site, PSS abd EPS don't mean anything to me and the abbreviations are not attractive.

I would recommend adding a site map in the general style of a table of contents.

Not all of your buttons work on all of your pages, especially the Home, Guestbook, and Summary of Sections. There may be others. (?)

I would also suggest using a solid color for the background. It would be less distracting. I also don't like the look of the borders...same reason. They look "heavy" and take away from the photos.

The title of your home page should be more descriptive, such as the name of your site. Also, on the home page it would be a good idea to have more text, a general summary of your site, what led you to take on this project, etc.

I greatly respect the time and effort you have put into this site. You have done a lot of things right that many first timers miss, such as meta tags and alternate text. Good job! Best of luck with it!

Sandy

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www.alleghenyweb.com

1. I agree with your comments on B/W images. I print my own photos, both B/W and colour. Most people, now, including myself seem to prefer off white (Antique White) mounting boards for display.

On the few occasions when I have used colour mounts, I have usually returned to the photos after a year or two and not been satisfied with the results.

It seems the same comments are likely to apply to backgrounds on the web.

I still have quite a lot of old photos to put on www.edinphoto.org.uk. I may some day also set up a web site to display my own photos.

2. I'd like to follow up your idea about "take the old photos, use them as buttons, erase the photos, keep the border as a frame for the text" but I'm a bit puzzled about what's happening. I must be a bit slow.

Can you explain what the result would look like, perhaps with an example of a page? I would not like to miss the chance to follow up your comment. Thanks.

It is good to have your comments, because I've been working by myself on this project to date.

I would, very much appreciate any further comments you have after reading my notes below:

1. I'll see what I can do to fix the Netscape problems. Then I'll look for the non-working buttons.

2. So far as the buttons and colours are concerned, I had attempted to carry colour schemes through the pages into some of the headings and table backgrounds - but I've not mentioned the fact, so it will probably not be obvious to viewers.

e.g. Headings for -
Professional Photographers = GREEN
Photographic Society of Scotland = PINK
Edinburgh Photographic Society = BLUE
etc.

3. The buttons are just text to which I added background colour and borders. There must be a way to create more professional-looking buttons - possibly buttons that change when I move the cursor over them.

It might be easy to change the buttons in the top borders, but I have thousands of buttons elsewhere on the page. It might look untidy to have professional-looking buttons in the top borders and existing style elsewhere on the site.

4. I'm really not sure how much detail to give in the top borders. At present I'm relying on visitors recognising abbreviations such as EPS and PSS (which some will do - or will discover when they click the button).

The alternative would be to replace the abbreviated buttons at the top (and possibly the bottom) of the page by something closer to the top of the home page, but that might look too cluttered.

Perhaps there are other sites that you suggest where about 12-15 sections are listed at the top of each page.

I still prefer to have my buttons at the top of pages. I tried descriptions at the left of the page, but it left me with less width than I wanted to display the main content of the site. I have tried frames, but I feel that the site will be easier to use without.

5. The background picture. I'll see how I feel about it after a week or two. I was looking something subtle that I could create, so that there would be a common feel throughout the site. But perhaps the picture is not subtle enough and is a distraction. I may decide to include it on just a few pages and leave the others with blank backgrounds as you suggest.

6. When you refer to heavy borders, is it the borders to the tables that you are rerering to. If so, I should look at what I have created, and decide on what style I prefer, before setting about changing them all.

7. Page title. I'll expand it as you suggest.

8. Fuller description on home page. It may be better for me to merely provide a link from the front page to another page giving this description, so that the front page does not become too cluttered.

The "What's New" page gives some information about my early research, before I began to create the web site about a year ago. That page could, perhaps, be expanded to give more info.

NOTE: I have acknowledged the help I have received from OutFront, in my Acknowledgement section. I'll expand this acknowledgement.

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Shirley

There must be some kinda way out of here
said the joker to the thief.

Money Tree Systems

Good to hear about your Grandfather. "It's a small world". Paisley was one of the first places in Britain to have a Photographic Society. It still has two thriving photographic societies. I gave a Lecture to one of them a couple of years ago.

I also have a list of photographers from Glasgow (but not on the web.) However, if you find any photographers' names and are wondering when the photographers were in business, ask me and I may be able to help.

I really enjoyed your site - I love Scotland, Edinburgh in particular and have especially treasured (if patchy ) memories of the many times I visited it for Scotland vs Ireland Rugby matches!

I am bothered by the buttons too. They really distract from the content and are far from clear. If I were you I would use text navigation for a site like this and avoid buttons altogether. That way you would easily fit the all of the words or phrases in.

If you are going to redo the buttons I would also advise, given the size of the site, that you create them in a seperate page and then include them (as include ages) in each page so that if you ever decide to change again in the future you will only have one page to change.

I have to comment on this:

quote:

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I had attempted to carry colour schemes through the pages into some of the headings and table backgrounds - but I've not mentioned the fact, so it will probably not be obvious to viewers.

---

If it is not obvious to viewers I wonder if it is worth doing? I knoe there will be people associated with site who will figure it out fairly quickly but you are also likely to get many other visitors ( and I think you will get VERY many) who will not.

I too think a little more text on the home page would not be overdoing it. You could use a much smaller font for this but an introduction here would be nice.

You have done a fantastic job and this site is a really valuable historic record. As such it probably matters little how ti looks really but with just a few small changes it could look fantastic too.

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Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

Thanks for your comments.

1. Well, it looks as if the buttons may have to go. When 2 or 3 Modrators make similar comments, I should listen!

It is surprising how easy it is to keep adding to the site (e.g. more buttons) without being aware of the alternatives. The buttons common to all pages are in my top border so it will be an easy task to remove them (and, I hope, an easy task to replace them by something that looks better).

2. You mention using creating buttons in a separate page, then including them (as include pages) in each page. I've never done that.

I fear it may mean that I have to open each page individually to include the new page in each. The result sounds good once I have done the exercise once - but the first time sounds like a lot of work. If it takes me a minute to open each of my pages, that's 20 hours work, so I'll have to think carefully before I start!

3. The new page suggested would, presumably cope with the row of buttons at the top of each page (leaving "home" and "up" to be handled by the FrontPage top border programming as it is now. Is that what you would suggest.

How do you feel about the other buttons on my site. The ones that are not common to all pages. e.g. on a page relating to an exhibition, I am likely to display buttons for other exhibitions. Usually, these buttons will be at the bottom of a page, with, perhaps a link to them from the top of the page. Do you think these could be left. Again, it could be a lot of work to make changes, and it is something I would like to think through before doing anything.
As you'll see from my "What's New" page, I'm still putting quite a lot more data into the site.

4. As you will see from my "What's New" page, I'm still adding quite a lot of info to the site, and expect to do so for quite a while yet, even if I learn nothing new from the visitors.

5. Other subjects like adding a little more text to the front page can be done much more easily. I could wait until I have done something about the buttons, which should give me a little more space, or I could do so now, which would mean that the front page would scroll - something I have been trying to avoid. What do you think?

Once you get your include page made for your header/menu, it will only take seconds to place it in a page since you were a good boy and used tables. I venture to say, once you get the hang of it, you will do several pages in the course of a minute.

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www.alleghenyweb.com

I've now added more detail to the home page on www.edinphoto.org.uk (following some of your comments).

Do you think it is an improvement?

Thanks for your comments.

- Peter

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Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

It was good to get the encouraging response to my revised home page. Thanks to those who originally suggested that I should consider adding more text to the page.

2. "INCLUDE PAGES"

Thanks, Abbeyvet and Goober for your comments on the "Include Pages". If I understand their function, they seem to be just what I need for navigation within parts of my site.

e.g. On each "Photographic Exhibition" page, I have provided links to all other Photographic Exhibitions. This means that whenever I add a page for another exhibition I have to change all exhibition pages. So, next time I need to change these, I'll try using the "include page" facility.

3. BUTTONS

... and here I'd welcome comments from anybody because it is the subject that has provoked the strongest reaction.

I've thought about all the comments for a couple of days. Briefly, the comments were:

a) The buttons do not look good, and are distracting, particularly on the home page and particularly the bright red and yellow.

b) The buttons on the top of the other pages use abbreviations such as PSS and EPS, and so may not be understood by visitors.

SO HERE IS WHAT AIM TO DO:

I still like the idea of buttons, rather than drop-down-menus or other navigation because I feel they give a constant reminder of the overall scope of the site (provided they are understood). They also make navigation around the site quicker. e.g. from any page on the site one click will take you to, say, the contents page for History or the contents page for Professional Photographers.

I even prefer to keep different colours for different sections of the site, though this is most important to me for the major sections of the site (the first five sections) and less important for other sections.

The colours do not need to be so bright as I have them, unless I particularly wish to attract attention to individual sections such as "What's New?"

HERE'S HOW I AIM TO DO IT:

I can create the buttons as text in small GIF files (yes, with different colour backgrounds) and add alternative text, so that when the cursor passes over the button the legend (e.g. PSS) becomes a fuller description (e.g. The Photographic Society of Scotland).

I'll have to experiment and decide whether I'd prefer to have one or two rows of buttons, and whether the buttons might look better if they are all the same size.

I might also add a note below the buttons saying "Please pass the cursor over the buttons for further explanation".

I don't yet know whether I would have the same buttons at the top of the home page or fuller explanation there.

WHAT NEXT?

Before I start the above, I'd like to hear if anybody has any comments. Perhaps somebody can suggest a source of good-looking buttons available from a web site somewhere.

There was a comment made early yesterday (it seems a long time ago) that my existing buttons cause a few problems when viewed on netscape. I hope that my revised page will use "proper" buttons, rather than what I now have and so may even work on Netscape.

If you're still reading, well done.

I look forward to hearing further comments and suggestions.

- Peter

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<thanks>
Nancy
</thanks>

I'm in the same position as yourself. There seems to be some sort of problem involving the host site. I've tried contacting them by phone. They normally answer in 10 seconds but have been constantly engaged tonight, so I presume there are a lot of people having similar problems.

Let's hope the site appears again soon.

It is 1.00am here, now.

Goodnight.

1. The host server stopped working for a couple of days, and was taken off line, leaving me (and you) helpless if we wanted to see www.edinphoto.org.uk.

It came back earlier today, so the site can be seen again, but the FrontPage Extensions has not yet been brought back, so the search facility won't work, and I can't yet upload all the additions I've made over the last couple of days.

Let's hope it is all fully in action soon, and that the problem does not recur.

2. My next action will be to see what I can do to improve the look of the buttons. (See my ideas about 3 messages previous.)

So, if anybody there has any suggestions on the sort of button that I might use - e.g. possibly first downloading some GIF images from a web siteto use as buttons, I'd be very pleased to hear. This info would be good at any time, but would be particularly helpful before I begin to make the changes.

3. You should be able to view the site OK now, if you wish to. I'll let you know as soon as I am told that it is fully operational, including the FrontPage extensions.

changes that I

I've made a few hundred changes to the site over the past ten days - mainly:

1. New Home Page, new Headings, new buttons for navigation throughout the site.

2. I've added some of my own photos. One way to find them is to look in "What's new?".

Comments please!

Thank you.

(The 'include page' feature that you suggested has worked well, thanks.)

Your photos are beautiful!!!! More! More!

Sandy

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www.alleghenyweb.com

I do intend to put more of my photos on the site, but it may be a month or two before I do so. I have quite a lot more historical research to do first.

So far as those buttons are concerned, I keep making small adjustments to them when I update the site. I believe the overall look is gradually becoming less cluttered.

It's about time for me to tell one or two search engines about the site, and see what visitors turn up.

- Peter