Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (Full Version)

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Mike_R -> Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/8/2003 16:10:24)

I just read something that makes me think I've confused two things: One, page rank in Google; and two, the position one is listed in the search results for a particular keyword set--I thought they were the same. Am I confused?

Mike R



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/9/2003 7:26:35)

Yes, slightly but understandably so.

First I will throw out the Google description of each...

"PageRank relies on the uniquely democratic nature of the web by using its vast link structure as an indicator of an individual page's value. "

http://www.google.com/technology/

"The heart of Google's search technology is PigeonRank™, a system for ranking web pages developed by Google founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin at Stanford University."

http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html

basically page rank will help your ranking but is vastly different.

Here are a few link checkers...

http://www.linkpopularity.com/

http://www.linkpopularitycheck.com/

http://linkstoyou.com/CheckLinks.htm

Now don't link just for the sake of a link swap, they hold VERY little weight. Try to link to sites that are "one theme" with yours.

Brian



burgi82 -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/9/2003 9:04:29)

In other forums, I heard people say that you can link to whoever you want.
They state that the more links you get to your page, the higher your PR will get. Of course, high quality links are worth more than low quality ones, but I think that it doesn't matter to what kind of site you link.



_gail -> Google Page Rank and SEO (9/9/2003 13:37:18)

This topic is interesting and somewhat new to me.

My client-base consists primarily of those who only need online brochures. They are not concerned about things such as page rank or getting traffic to their site so I haven't paid much attention to this area. But I'd like to get up to snuff and have questions.

How do you find people who want to link to you? Do you do a search for sites with related themes, email and ask them to link to your site? I'm personally not interested in joining a web-ring.

Regarding page rank and linking, where does all of this fit in with SEO. Is there a direct relation or has one become more important than the other? I'm sure they are not mutually excluse but what is the relationship. Has preparing pages with meta tags such as keywords and descriptions taken a back seat? In other words, are they less or more important than previously?

thanks, gail



erinatkins -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/9/2003 14:06:27)

This site has some good information on this topic.



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/9/2003 15:27:43)

quote:

forums, I heard people say that you can link to whoever you want.


You sure can.

quote:

Of course, high quality links are worth more than low quality ones, but I think that it doesn't matter to what kind of site you link.


I respectfully disagree.
It will boost your PR but you will dilute your "theme" that Google sees and will lower your overall SERP listings. I quote...

"But, Google looks at more than the sheer volume of votes, or links a page receives; it also analyzes the page that casts the vote. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important."

Taken from...

http://www.google.com/technology/

Now a high PR ranked page say from an automotive site to a SEO site would carry much less weight as say a link from a high PR automotive site to another automotive site.

IMHO,

Brian



Mike_R -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/9/2003 17:00:30)

Wow, that's something to think about. The reason I asked was that I was looking to swap links with a site that is on-theme with mine, and they said they only made exchanges with sites of a Rank 4 or higher. Incidentally, how do you determine what your ranking is?

As far as the discussion on where and how to get links, I have to say that I agree with Brian. It takes a lot of time and is a slow manual approach, but I have been contacting sites that were on-theme with mine, but not direct competition, and trying to swap links if they have a links page.

Mike R



burgi82 -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/9/2003 19:26:12)

This is indeed a very interesting topic and I have seen very many opinions on this subject.
About my statement from earlier on:
quote:

Of course, high quality links are worth more than low quality ones, but I think that it doesn't matter to what kind of site you link.

What I meant is that if you get a link from a page with high PR, it is worth more than a link from a site with low PR. I think we all agree on that.
Now, the other part, where I stated that it doesn't matter to what kind of site you link. What I mean is that it doesn't matter to what kind of topic the site has you link to and get a link from.
I even think that the google quote stated before somewhat supports my statement:
quote:

"But, Google looks at more than the sheer volume of votes, or links a page receives; it also analyzes the page that casts the vote. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important."


I think that this statement is simply saying that a link from a site with high PR is worth more than a link from a site with low PR, which I stated before and I think we agree on.
But the statement says nothing about being on-topic. Another reason I think that way is that I read in an internet marketing article ( I know I shouldn't believe everything) that google can't even determine if something is on-topic or not. For example, if somebody has a website about jewelry, he/she can also write something about credit cards and how to use them when buying jewelry and then a link to a credit card webpage would even be on topic.

quote:

Now a high PR ranked page say from an automotive site to a SEO site would carry much less weight as say a link from a high PR automotive site to another automotive site.


I just don't see this. I'm sorry. Of course, it's only my opinion, but I have never seen any kind of evidence that this statement is correct, and your quote from google doesn't support this statement either because it only talks about PR basically.

But, hey, would it be this interesting if all the answers were known? Not really!

With regard to how to find out your PR, go to http://toolbar.google.com/ and download the toolbar. Then, when you visit websites, it will show you the PR of that page in the toolbar.
Hope that helps!



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/10/2003 17:13:11)

Oh, I love SEO!

It's really complicated but there's no smoke and no mirrors. In my experience Yahoo and Google almost mirror each other but MS has a different data source for indexing pages that goes back to the sites they used to index before pay-for-listings.

I've spent countless hours over the last 3 or 4 years researching SEO at first approaching it with some reluctance and distrust but that changed as SEO changed and I learned more.

Here's what I know now:

* Oh I better add a disclaimer...
I approach search engine optimizing for one end and that it to return better results for keywords and phrases that relate to the business or activity of the website. This is based on keyword and phrase selection. I don't really believe that crosslinking with another site will benefit my particular site or clients and approach any linking with caution. Some folks may get really good results from linking but so far I have done well without actively persuing it or joining any linking strategies

Google is geographically specific. In British Columbia Canada using Google I can search a phrase and my site comes up #1 out of about 200,000 but a friend of mine in Kansas USA searching the same phrase on Google will return a different number of results and my site is somewhere around #5 or #6.

PageRank on the google bar is not the end-all-be-all for search engine optimizing. It is a good judge of how well your linking structure is viewed by the google-bot spiders. If you have poor pagerank and you do not rank well for search engine returns, you can only benefit from better PageRank.

Textual links rank higher than images or image maps, but you can improve the results of image & image map links by providing title attributes to these links with keyword-rich descriptions. This can move you up in the ranks considerably.

Links to your site is probably the most controversial subject of SEO and IMHO can only make or break your SEO if you are trying to compete for very popular keywords or phrases. I am not too concerned about this unless I am competing in this arena.

2 cases in point:
First
Up until recently my site was #4 out of 160,000 for a very specific phrase and I moved it to that spot from about #70 or worse with better linking, keyword rich title tags, robots.txt, directory names, image names, etc. Making changes to the title attributes of my links moved me to the #2 spot and this was all without more than 2 outside links to my site.

I have just started adding external links and will need to improve internal ones if I am going to take the #1 spot, but I've done well without.

Second
Search the term design and depending on whether Google takes geography into consideration you will find 135,000,000 returns:
#1 www.wpdfd.com (1,070 external links)
#2 www.htmlhelp.com (2,790 external links)
#3 www.designiskinky.com (357 external links)

More important than links or page rank IMO is "allinanchor". By improving the relationship of your links to the content of your site will make big improvements on your SEO efforts.

If you want to see how your site really measures up use something like the free demo at: www.seocount.com (you will need a free account at the google API but it's all explained at the seocount site)

Measure your website for a given phrase. Then test the same phrase and in front of the phrase insert the term allinanchor:

Comparing both sets of results will give you an even better view of how your site measures up to the competition.

This is a bit of a mish-mash of info so I hope it is useful. I just started typing and tried to get the most important info out without confusing the issues. There is a lot of information that is just to lengthy to get into one post.

Cheers,



_gail -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/10/2003 22:18:19)

I found a rare gem, imho: Someone on the web who explains stuff like this with a combination of clarity and succinctness:

http://www.searchengineworld.com/tips/index.htm

gail



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/10/2003 23:30:50)

Nice one gail,

I had a quick look and bookmarked it for more later.
I really like the Do's and Don'ts section. Really valuable stuff.

As you mentioned this author is really easy to understand.

One note: Some of the information goes back a few years and isn't as relevant as it once was. For instance Meta tags.

These guys are another contraversial subject and according to some sources are not required any more. If you are concerned keep them in but don't count on them to work as described. Things have changed a bit about where they fit into the whole scheme of things.

I still use meta tags but I'm not sure how effective they are anymore as it seems the information listed in the description is real page content and not related to the meta's.

Here's another link, but I don't think it is has the same level of clarity and succinctness as your find. Good stuff though and really current:
http://www.websitepublisher.net/website_promotion/search_engine_optimization/

G'nite,
Andrew



_gail -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 0:00:30)

quote:

One note: Some of the information goes back a few years and isn't as relevant as it once was.


I suppose this is something with which one must be forever diligent, particularly on the web. I don't know which is worse...info that is a bit dated yet understandable, or current info but barely written in a manner most can comprehend.

That's why places like Outfront are so helpful...to help decipher the legit from all the other fluff. [:D]

gail



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 0:06:49)

quote:

That's why places like Outfront are so helpful...to help decipher legit stuff from all the fluff.


That's for sure!

I really think that although some of the info on that site may be a little outdated the section on Do's and Don'ts make up for it. The info there is as good today as it was when it was written

Cheers,
Andrew



garry -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 0:08:02)

Another way to view pagerank without downloading teh Google toolbar is to go to http://directory.google.com and drill down to your site.

See the PR ranking bar on the LHS.

Sometimes it is very disappointing (OK always) however a PR of 3 for my site still gets 2nd spot on a general search.


Get your xmas didgeridoo at
www.didj-territory.com.au



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 0:56:18)

quote:

Sometimes it is very disappointing (OK always)


That's for sure [8|]

I've been working at my site for quite some time and the best I have managed is 4 out of 10 in the good areas and some areas have 2 out of 10. The areas I block with robots.txt show zero and that's good, meaning they don't get in there.

If I ditch the graphic based navigation I'll bet my pagerank will improve immensely.

Every little bit helps.
Andrew



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 7:25:38)

Wow, I REALLY like how this thread has evolved.

Thomas:

I guess I should have expanded way back on my first post. If just concerned with PR solely yes link to drive the PR. However in the larger picture it will dilute the theme of the site for overall SEO work. I apologize for not going into the larger picture.

quote:

If I ditch the graphic based navigation I'll bet my pagerank will improve immensely.


Andrew is spot on here. By the way great posts Andrew. Another thought is static links VS. dynamic links. Why give PR trickle to a "contact us" page or "shipping policy" page. This is one area where I need to back track and setup a system just for this, I've just been procrastinating.

Brian



Mike_R -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 9:45:19)

A few questions:

1.) I understand that text links are preferable to image links, but aren't image links okay if you make sure you use the alt attribute to specify the missing text?

2.) I have never considered using the title attribute as well for images and image maps. Has anyone else had success with this?

3.) What if you also supplied small text links at the bottom of the page, but kept the image links for their aesthetic beauty. Would that accomplish the objective just as well.

Thanks to all. Like Brian, I have really enjoyed this thread.

Mike R



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 10:48:58)

What a great thread.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflect
Another thought is static links VS. dynamic links. Why give PR trickle to a "contact us" page or "shipping policy" page.

What do you have in mind for your system? Do you want to remove PR from these ones?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike_R
What if you also supplied small text links at the bottom of the page, but kept the image links for their aesthetic beauty. Would that accomplish the objective just as well.

That might just do the trick.

I have aslo been giving some thought to adding a text based site map that is linked to every page in the site. I think this should improve links but I'm not sure if it would improve pagerank.

Andrew



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/11/2003 12:33:08)

quote:

What do you have in mind for your system? Do you want to remove PR from these ones?


Totally, why share PR with pages that I have used no index METAs on and also excluded in my robots.txt? I am thinking of using a CGI BIN utility to achieve this.

quote:

I have aslo been giving some thought to adding a text based site map that is linked to every page in the site. I think this should improve links but I'm not sure if it would improve pagerank.


I've been doing this for a few years now, more so for the spiders to find all pages regardless, less the ones I don't want them to. I used the same philosophy of a text wrapped link with keywords. The only down side is this is in place from day one for any site that I do so I have been unable to quantify the results from this.

quote:

I understand that text links are preferable to image links, but aren't image links okay if you make sure you use the alt attribute to specify the missing text?


Images, as a base for links still work, it is just that you will get BETTER results with text for generating the PR.

quote:

What if you also supplied small text links at the bottom of the page, but kept the image links for their aesthetic beauty. Would that accomplish the objective just as well.


I have no hard proof, just things that I have noticed. The closer to the <body> your content or links are it seems more weight is given on the factoring VS. at the bottom of the page. One way to overcome this is to use CSS, DIVS and positioning.

Brian



Mojo -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/12/2003 0:49:01)

quote:

It's really complicated but there's no smoke and no mirrors.


Actually, it is simple except for the smoke and mirrors.

If you want to be in the top 3 for a competitive *money* phrase your going to have to be creative (smoke and mirrors all the way).

Being in the top 10 for a phrase that is in Google 200,000 times is nice to look at, but it only matters if you can convert that ranking into some serious $$.



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/12/2003 7:14:02)

quote:

If you want to be in the top 3 for a competitive *money* phrase your going to have to be creative (smoke and mirrors all the way).


Amen.

Brian



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/12/2003 16:43:40)

Hey Brian,

How much pagerank are you getting on the pages you have declared out of bounds through Meta and Robots.txt?

I have blocked bots with both and only have pagerank on the first page. All other pages in those sections receive zero pagerank.

* I haven't looked through the server logs to check and see if these sections have been visited, but I am getting visits once a day from Google_bot and since I edited robots and my metas I am getting better results.

The only section I pulled out was a dynamic calendar that is capable of retrieving dates from 100AD to 9999AD. That's a whole lot of useless data for a Google_bot.



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/15/2003 7:20:25)

quote:

How much pagerank are you getting on the pages you have declared out of bounds through Meta and Robots.txt?

I have blocked bots with both and only have pagerank on the first page. All other pages in those sections receive zero pagerank.


That has been my findings also. Why the first page in each section I can not figure out though.

I have two new sites that have no PR as they are new and I have NOT promoted them. I will be starting on promotion efforts this week (Unless my content person floods me again.). Actually I just looked up my DMOZ notes. I submitted both sites when we were first starting content. I knew DMOZ would take a while as it has no editor for the category. I was hoping this would give me a normal two or three month lead time. It has been 2 1/2 months so I will hit the DMOZ forums late tonight to put in ticklers.

Brian

Brian



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/15/2003 10:25:51)

Hey Brian,

That brings another key point. DMOZ. I've managed to get sites listed in a number of B2B sites but not with DMOZ yet.

I've looked at the FAQ and the forum and even wrote down the dates I submitted them just to be sure it was done, but nothing and this is going on for 6 to 9 months.

Any thoughts?

Andrew



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/15/2003 11:14:39)

quote:

Any thoughts?


Yup...

http://www.resource-zone.com/ubbthreads.php

Brian



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/15/2003 13:15:07)

Thanks Brian.

I'll give it a few more goes.

See ya,
Andrew



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/15/2003 14:02:22)

No problem. I'm heading down that path tonight [;)].

Brian



Mike_R -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/16/2003 9:49:01)

Andrew:

I have been following your exchanges with Brian and am trying to figure out how you guys are structuring your sites. There was one thing you said in particular that has me a little confused:

quote:

How much pagerank are you getting on the pages you have declared out of bounds through Meta and Robots.txt?

I have blocked bots with both and only have pagerank on the first page. All other pages in those sections receive zero pagerank.


I guess it's the "sections" part that I'm wondering about. I am trying to learn what I should exclude in my robots.txt file. If structure combines with that to steer page rank in the right direction, I want to do all I can to appeal to Google's sensitivities. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike R



awasson -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/16/2003 10:49:11)

Hi Mike,

Since the first site I built I create a directory structure for my sites that consists of at least one folder or directory for each section and of course one for images as well.

This makes it fairly easy to use robots.txt to prevent a bot from wasting its time indexing large amounts of useless data, like the calendar I mentioned. You just add a rule to robots like the following:
Disallow: /calendar/

My motivation is to prevent the bot from becoming lost or timing out before it can get some real data. I also block the FP directories and cgi-bin:
Disallow: /cgi-bin/
Disallow: /_private/
Disallow: /_vti_cnf/
Disallow: /_vti_log/
Disallow: /_vti_pvt/
Disallow: /_vti_script/
Disallow: /_vti_txt/

I originally decided to architect my sites using directories for structure so that maintenance and editing would be more efficient. It just has the added bonus of being robots.txt friendly and I have a theory that if you use an intuitive naming convention it could improve your results due to keyword rich links.

(just a theory)

Cheers,
Andrew



Reflect -> RE: Google Page Rank and Search Results Position? (9/16/2003 11:34:28)

For me it is also house cleaning/keeping. An added bonus is that each sub directory of CONTENT sections get named with keywords in mind.

A saying that I was told when first starting back a few years that has stuck...

SEO happens before the first page is created.

Brian



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