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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/2/2003 0:11:45
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peppergal
Hi everyone....
These two pages look good in IE at 800x600. They stink in higher resolution; I'll figger that out or I'll ask...but anyway:
http://www.design-a-website.com/lvcc/index.htm
http://www.design-a-website.com/lvcc/newpage2.htm
BUT the background image is not in the proper position in Mozilla and Netscape, and neither is the little <div> element on the left.
WHY? What am I doing wrong?
Style sheet
for the "index" page: (white bg)
http://www.design-a-website.com/lvcc/lvcc_style_sheet2.css
for the "newpage2" page (purple)
http://www.design-a-website.com/lvcc/style_sheet3.css
Hi pepergal, I ran into the same thing with my pages that I am learning on. Searched like crazy through the net on different things.
One thing that you could try is a @import style sheet. Once I did this, the page looked great. Only thing is that I don't think that @import is CSS standard.
What you would do is the @import would contain if remembering correctly, the informaiton for the IE, then your other style sheet would contain the information for NN (which I believe ignores the @import) and opera etc... So you are basically doing two style sheets. If you look in the homework link that I have here you will see a page 5c, (http://c.1asphost.com/c1sissy/div%20test%20pages/divsboxexmple5c.htm)take a look at how I did the style sheets for this page. I had to play with the divs to get them to behave in the one for NN, it is set up differetnly from the one for the IE. Of course since I am just learning this it is sort of boggled in my head right now.
Also, since I had two divs that I wanted to be next to each other, I nested these inside of a div. This sort of helped out as well. Not sure how much help I am here but hope that this gives you a bit to go on, and maybe you will come up with something that works better that you could share!
< Message edited by c1sissy -- 11/2/2003 12:16:14 AM >
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Peppergal
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/4/2003 1:05:00
Thanks c1sissy!
What I ended up doing was ditching the background image and just put the logo image in a div, which works really nice. My CSS and HTML validates (with the exception of a few alt text attributes; I wasn't going to put alt text on temporary images just to make a test site validate! LOL) and it looks good in IE, Netscape 7, and Mozilla....well, netscape 4.7 looks kinda bland but it's still readable.
http://www.design-a-website.com/lvcc/lvcc_ss_4.html
On the leadership and worship pages I wanted to be without tables just for the heck of it but I'm running out of patience. It's been quite a battle getting this far! I'll tackle floating divs and stuff another day!
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Peppergal
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/4/2003 11:42:25
Hail the wise and wonderful Gorilla! He pointed me toward Layout Master and some other CSS tools that helped me a GREAT deal. I appreciate your tips and experience as well....I've been reading the CSS homework thread and gleaning stuff from there too.
It's easier for me to learn to do it using the Layout Master. Then I layout what I want to do, then I can look at the layout master's code and say "Oh, cool...THAT's how I do that!" I have a book called CSS and DHTML for the World Wide Web which I reference, but it's not as convenient a tool as I had hoped. Oh well....I had three kids with me in Borders all begging me to let them go to the children's section, and when I said "Okay, let's go..." I took my stack of CSS books with me but was unable to look at them as the kids kept bugging me to read to them! LOL So I just grabbed this book and hoped it was what I wanted...
As soon as I get paid for my website job, I'm purchasing the Layout Master. The Stlye Master, while very very nice, will have to wait a while. I'm using a free tool found called Style Assistant, which suits my purposes great.
I was afraid with Front Page that I'd become dependent on the WYSIWYG aspect of it and not be able to to anyting without out. But I 've found the opposite is true...because I'm constantly in HTML mode fixing FP errors anyway! LOL I think the same thing will be true with Layout Master, except it doens't do errors....my CSS validates every time!
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/4/2003 12:10:57
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peppergal
Hail the wise and wonderful Gorilla! He pointed me toward Layout Master and some other CSS tools that helped me a GREAT deal. I appreciate your tips and experience as well....I've been reading the CSS homework thread and gleaning stuff from there too.
It's easier for me to learn to do it using the Layout Master. Then I layout what I want to do, then I can look at the layout master's code and say "Oh, cool...THAT's how I do that!" I have a book called CSS and DHTML for the World Wide Web which I reference, but it's not as convenient a tool as I had hoped. Oh well....I had three kids with me in Borders all begging me to let them go to the children's section, and when I said "Okay, let's go..." I took my stack of CSS books with me but was unable to look at them as the kids kept bugging me to read to them! LOL So I just grabbed this book and hoped it was what I wanted...
As soon as I get paid for my website job, I'm purchasing the Layout Master. The Stlye Master, while very very nice, will have to wait a while. I'm using a free tool found called Style Assistant, which suits my purposes great.
I was afraid with Front Page that I'd become dependent on the WYSIWYG aspect of it and not be able to to anyting without out. But I 've found the opposite is true...because I'm constantly in HTML mode fixing FP errors anyway! LOL I think the same thing will be true with Layout Master, except it doens't do errors....my CSS validates every time!
Experience? I have only been at the css for about 2 months!
btw, feel free to use the code and styles that are on the homework pages. If it helps you out, go for it.
I have the stylemaster but only use it for writing the styles. I dont' let it write them for me.
I think I might dowload a trial of layout master just to see what it does.
I also lunge after all the gorilla links, they are loaded with soo much valueable information. IN fact, go to the codepunk site. The tutorials there are great in the advanced css. That is where I started grapsing the ID's! And the layouts with the divs etc.... He has the example pages right there that you can click on, plus you can get the code for the pages as well.
I have a product called instant source that all I need to do is click on it and it gives me a view of the css file so that I don't have to download it and open it. If you want the link to get a trial, let me know. Pretty neat thing!
I still have so much to learn! But it is fun!
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As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/4/2003 15:54:59
quote:
ORIGINAL: gorilla
Ladies please, I'm just a simple gorilla who walks around the place on his knuckles wondering where his next banana daquiri is coming from:
Hey Jesper, I went to a 25th anniversary dinner Saturday night, I had a drink called a CHOCOLATE BANANA, and thought of all of you
(I rarely ever have a drink, but I couldnt' resist trying this one )
And, to emphasise, the links that you give are excellent. I fly to all of them. One swinging limb to the next
Also, the codepunk site had come up in many of my seraches on things with css, however, not their main site with the tutorials for some reason. I always managed to get the pages that he would have in his lessons for referal to what he was doing. So it is easy to get tossed off by the name of the site if you arne't lead to the correct place on there. I have learned a lot from his site.
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/
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Nancy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 0:39:29
Peppergal,
Here's a link I came across regarding bugs and workarounds for NN4, which is the version of NN you'll have problems with.
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-nn.html#NN4
If your checking with NN7+, you shouldn't experience problems if the css is valid.
Nancy
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 6:50:33
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nancy
Peppergal,
Here's a link I came across regarding bugs and workarounds for NN4, which is the version of NN you'll have problems with.
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-nn.html#NN4
If your checking with NN7+, you shouldn't experience problems if the css is valid.
Nancy
Nancy, I have NN7 and still had problems with the one page for some reason. apparently it was the prolog. grin, then I tried Jespers little trick, and now am having difficulty getting this back to how I had it in IE. BUT plan on playing with it today!
Thanks for the link. It seems that the more that I learn, the more I find I still have to learn!
<edit>roflol! I love your new addition to your signature!</edit>
< Message edited by c1sissy -- 11/7/2003 6:51:11 AM >
_____________________________
Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/
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Peppergal
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 8:10:24
Thanks Nancy!
Though the snob in me says to NN4 users: UPDATE THE STINKIN' BROWSER! LOL
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Nancy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 11:58:59
Thanks Deb. I came across that little gem recently, and just had to have it. *S*
As for problems with Netscape -- my point is that I hate seeing Netscape getting the blame for how something appears when it is NOT Netscape's fault, at least not NN7. If the CSS is not valid, or the doctype is incorrect, the browser can't be blamed for that.
Karen, I agree with you. However, there are some alternatives. At least for me, it is an alternative I am willing to live with for the NN4 people. I am just now in the final stages of redesigning my site, eliminating tables completely and doing a CSS layout. I used the @import to bring in the stylesheet, and did not link it. Since NN4 ignores the @import, the page has no style for NN4, however it is completely useable. The links are also CSS list, so no javascript.
Function before beauty - it functions in many older browsers just fine. It just has a very plain white look to it. Newer more compliant browsers get a little beauty along with the function. So although I don't design for NN4, I do make sure it at least functions and doesn't crash it.
Nancy
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 13:47:19
Nancy, in percentages of the surfing population, just curious, how many people do you think still have older browsers?
I'm not saying here that we don't take them into consideration, just curious.
Another thing that I wonder about. I have NN7 and just recently it told me that an update is available. Dont most people get these same notices?
_____________________________
Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
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http://positioniseverything.net/
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Nancy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 16:14:56
I don't know that I could venture a guess on percentages, but I know it is fairly low. However, even if it was only 10%, that is a number that should be considered in some way. For a brick and mortar business, that equates to one person in 10 being locked out of the store. Most business people would not take that risk.
When it comes to browsers, it is possible to make a site useable without locking those people out. It is the visual experience that is changed. I know there are plenty of web designers that strongly believe it is the visual experience that "sells" but I look at it a little differently. A blind person doesn't get the visual experience of the $100,000 interior re-design of a store, but as long as the re-design of the store didn't involve physical roadblocks in the aisles for a person walking around the store, the blind person can still get the items they came for. And by separating out all the visual effects, or styling of the content, from the HTML, you can actually increase the accessibility of a site for those using older browsers.
As for upgrade notices - I'm sure some of them have received those notices on a regular basis and either ignored them, or chose not to do them. When the first version of NN6 came out, it was horrible. ISP's, in my area at least, were giving out notices for people NOT to upgrade. It wasn't long and NN had an upgrade that seemed to take care of the initial issues, but many of those people who were told not to upgrade are keeping that warning in their mind I think.
I've never been confident about the statistics regarding browser use. I've been recently teaching a class on a computer related issue. So I took my own little poll. Of the ten people in the class, 4 are Netscape users. Of those 4, only one still uses NN4, the other 3 are using NN7. I won't say this class reflects global stats, but certainly it is a cross-section of people that I would consider average surfers. And the lonely only NN4 user is 10% of the class.
Nancy
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 20:40:42
Nancy, I totally agree with you here on this one. Which is why i have mozilla, nn and msn and IE and opera on here to view things in.
I know I have a long way to go, but I want to make sure that the road that I am walking down includes even those who aren't up to speed on the browsers.
Thanks for your explaination as it think that it was a great one! And thanks for the time to write it.
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
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Peppergal
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/7/2003 23:05:09
I think the latest web pages I did actually do look "okay" in NN4. Certainly plain and rather...blah.
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/8/2003 7:43:47
quote:
An important class of visitor is blind
Jesper, I would like to take this statement and use this for those with eyesite problems and those who have reading programs on their computers.
Isn't correct usage of css and xhtml supposed to help make this easier for this group of people?
Just curious over a group of visitors to our sites, which Nancy does refer to in her post above.
Also, there are those who use a speech engine because they can't type. Or have difficulty typing due to handicaps.
I guess my overall question here is does the usage of css improve the surfing capability of those with handicaps? If so, doesn't this as a web designer of any degree, be it a learning web designer to a professional web designer, make it our responsibility to make sure that things are done correctly? And to think of all groups of sufers to the sites that are worked on?
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
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http://positioniseverything.net/
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Nancy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 11/8/2003 11:50:42
Thanks Jesper. *S*
quote:
ORIGINAL: c1sissy
I guess my overall question here is does the usage of css improve the surfing capability of those with handicaps? If so, doesn't this as a web designer of any degree, be it a learning web designer to a professional web designer, make it our responsibility to make sure that things are done correctly? And to think of all groups of sufers to the sites that are worked on?
Absolutely! Absolutely! Absolutely! (3 of those because there are 3 questions in the above quote. )
I could go ahead and give a big long explanation about how and why but I think the W3C has already done it better than I could.
Accessibility Features of CSS
Nancy
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bdaul
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 12/25/2003 4:48:32
I just can't make sense of all the materials I am finding on the web
about the compatibility issues NN vs. IE using CSS. I have tried to
read through the posted material here but the density of my skull
seems too great to allow the solution to my problem in...can anyone
simplify it even more...
HOW CAN I GET NN TO USE THIS CSS to render something like what IE
does?!?!?! Help...
COULD you please take a little look and see if there is a solution
for me, the simpleton?
THANKS, --bill (painfully frustrated) bdaul@pacbell.net
html page:
http://www.human-landscaping.com/saper/contact.html
first few lines of the HTML file:
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name="generator" content="Adobe GoLive 6">
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" title="second level style" href="secondlevel.css">
<title>Contact information</title>
<script TYPE="text/javascript">
<!--
style sheet:
http://www.human-landscaping.com/saper/secondlevel.css
or here it is simple:
img.world { position: absolute; z-index: -1; top: 170px; left: 185px }
img.jeff { position: absolute; z-index: -1; top: 10px; left: 10px }
img.title { position: absolute; z-index: -1; top: 10px; left: 194px }
img.book { position: absolute; z-index: -1; top: 10px; left: 814px }
table.m { position: absolute; z-index: -1; top: 140px; left: 0px }
div.pagetitle { font-style: italic; font-weight: ; font-size: 26pt; font-family: aria; position: absolute; top: 150px; left: 194px; width: 500px; height: 400px }
div.guts { font-size: 16pt; font-family: aria; position: absolute; top: 200px; left: 194px; width: 500px; height: 400px }
< Message edited by bdaul -- 12/25/2003 4:49:34 >
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 12/25/2003 12:23:14
Hi bdaul, Welcome to the forums!
I'm not sure if this will help you or not but try reading here in the forums. There is a very good section on using the @import. This should help you out a tad.
If not, just come back and post your questions. Just be patient due to the holydays right now.
<edit> Just looked at your site, NICE!.
Another thing as I was looking at your code, <script TYPE="text/javascript"> you have type in all caps, this should be in all small leters.
also, I'm not familar with javascript, hope to be soon, adopted son is in the process of wrtiting a tutorial for me to help me out with it!.
You are missing the L in arial.
Other then this I am not seeing anything out of the ordinary. Though at my 11 weeks of learning this, I am sure that someone that knows more would come along and help you out a tad on this if they see anything.
Back again. I noticed that you are using tables, have you considered nixing the tables and using divs for this? Lots less coding involved. Less bandwidth, more savings for you. Just a thought for you to toss about.
</edit>
Merry Christmas
< Message edited by c1sissy -- 12/25/2003 12:33:58 >
_____________________________
Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
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bdaul
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 12/25/2003 13:52:43
C1SISSY,
Thanks for the reply...but, sigh...no luck...
1. The link you put in "here" doesn't seem to go anywhere for me.
2. The TYPE vs. type...it seem to have always worked for me...I just changed it and it made no difference. :-(
3. Thanks...I fixed the ARIAL missing L ...
4. Regarding tables...still not ready to figure out how to do a complex table.
The image map navigation bar on the left...that isn't the table you meant right?
Thanks again and happy holidays...
--bill
quote:
ORIGINAL: c1sissy
Hi bdaul, Welcome to the forums!
I'm not sure if this will help you or not but try reading here in the forums. There is a very good section on using the @import. This should help you out a tad.
If not, just come back and post your questions. Just be patient due to the holydays right now.
<edit> Just looked at your site, NICE!.
Another thing as I was looking at your code, <script TYPE="text/javascript"> you have type in all caps, this should be in all small leters.
also, I'm not familar with javascript, hope to be soon, adopted son is in the process of wrtiting a tutorial for me to help me out with it!.
You are missing the L in arial.
Other then this I am not seeing anything out of the ordinary. Though at my 11 weeks of learning this, I am sure that someone that knows more would come along and help you out a tad on this if they see anything.
Back again. I noticed that you are using tables, have you considered nixing the tables and using divs for this? Lots less coding involved. Less bandwidth, more savings for you. Just a thought for you to toss about.
</edit>
Merry Christmas
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c1sissy
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 12/25/2003 14:05:39
quote:
1. The link you put in "here" doesn't seem to go anywhere for me.
Hi bdaul, are you saying that the link didn't work? OR that it just didn't help you out?
Have you tried searching online for NN css problems? Soemtimes that will take you into an area that might have information for you.
I wish I could be of more help, but don 't give up, maybe someone that knows way more then I do will come along with an answer for you.
_____________________________
Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/
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bdaul
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RE: CSS and Mozilla/Netscape Nightmare! - 12/25/2003 23:55:15
AND THE ANSWER WAS/IS:
Just remove the z-indices from your stylesheet manually. Since there is
no zero-level defined in your document, the elements with a minus index
might just be put somewhere "behind" the actual page..
THANKS!!!
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