Outsourcing SEO (Full Version)

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powersitedesign -> Outsourcing SEO (12/9/2003 0:57:34)

Hi -

I am in a difficult position. I have been handling SEO in-house using software that was purchased a while back called Web-Position Gold. While I beleive that this software has helped my clients in the past, I have been noticing alot of negative feedback about the program lately. I am looking to find a firm to outsource this work to, but we have only been charging our clients $39 a month for this added service. I need to find something that is going to work, and be cheap, plus will allow me more time to devote to recruiting new clients and maintaining the ones that we have.

The Search Engine Placement Business is rapidly changing, and I realize that it is in my clients best interest to outsource this to some firm that does only SEO/SEP.

Question, Does Anyone Know of a Good Firm to Outsource this too, or at least let me know if they have ran across a good SEO Service in the past?




Reflect -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (12/9/2003 11:40:49)

Welcome to the board!!!

I'm not sure what luck you will have for that rate.

Here is a members site that has gotten a lot of nice reviews (You're welome Ed [;)]).

http://www.seoconsultants.com

bRIAN




powersitedesign -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (12/9/2003 11:50:10)

Great Site. Thanks, I am going to do some investigative work.




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (12/18/2003 19:25:18)

Thanks Brian! ;)

Unfortunately the SEO/SEM landscape has changed dramatically from the time WPG was conceptualized. It is no longer a free ride as it once was. The only real free search engine left is Google and it won't be long before they move into a paid business model.

For all of you considering hiring a professional SEO/SEM, be sure that your budget is sufficient. You are not going to get quality SEO/SEM for less than $1,000 per month. In fact, I know many clients whose budgets begin at $2,500 per month and go up from there.

If you want to play, then you'll have to pay. You can outsource your SEO to whomever you wish. Just be prepared to spend some cash and do it right the first time. Many have chosen the outsource route only to come back locally and hire someone to redo what they outsourced.

Get bids from 2 to 3 firms for your project. Make sure it is an apples to apples comparison. There is so much involved in marketing a web site today that the smaller mom and pop business doesn't stand a chance if they don't allocate the proper funds for promotion.




DarlingBri -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/14/2004 23:05:11)

Pageoneresults and I often butt heads on the topic of SEO, so my comments should come as no shock to him :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pageoneresults

You are not going to get quality SEO/SEM for less than $1,000 per month.


This is not absolutely true by any means. (I hate absolute statements about non-absolute things.) There are many ways and many means of SEO. The correct strategy for one business may not be the correct strategy for another. My feeling is that it depends on the keywords you are after and how competitive they are. I'll take all the stocktaking clients in the world, but I wouldn't touch a realestate client for all the tea in China. I don't have that kind of patience.

quote:

There is so much involved in marketing a web site today that the smaller mom and pop business doesn't stand a chance if they don't allocate the proper funds for promotion.


I don't do SEO for other clients because it is the most boring, tedious job in the world IMHO, but believe me -- you can have good results without vast amounts of ongoing work. Contact some smaller companies or one-man-bands and ask to see their results. All the quotes in the world, of whatever size, won't mean squat without the results -- no matter what the price.




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/14/2004 23:16:09)

Hello DarlingBri! While I agree with you on your response, I think I was trying to prepare everyone for this statement...

quote:

Just be prepared to spend some cash and do it right the first time.

You can definitely get SEM for less than $1,000 per month and sure, you'll see results. But, you'll see a much higher level of quality results if you hire the right person and/or firm and that usually comes at a price. Keep in mind that the $1,000 I quoted, included PFI and PPC fees. If its just straight organic SEM with no PFI or PPC, then yes, the actual expense for the SEM will be lower.

If you have a long term strategy and can wait for the traffic to start increasing, then yes, organic SEM is the way to go. If you are an online business and need to start generating traffic and ROI immediately, then the above statement I made still stands. ;)




Mojo -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 1:29:45)

If your in a competitive market and desire to be one of the main players you MUST dedicate some serious time to SEM or hire a serious person/company. Notice I did not say SEO. I am one of those who believes that long term SEO is dead. PPC / PPI is the future. The market is moving to a more traditional approach to online business where you should be advertising and worrying about *conversion* rates. The brick and mortar world are old hands at this business and are starting to get much more involved in eCommerce. I heard Danny Sullivan say that he thinks the large companies will dominate online sales in a few years. He used Amazon as an example of a company that is tired of throwing resources at PPC / PPI and will simply tell Google (or whoever) "here is my check for 20,000 or 2 million for the month - make me #1 for the following 1000 terms and make me in the top 10 for these 10,000 terms". I tended to agree with him.

Conversion, conversion, conversion! Who cares if you are ranked #1 in Google?

How is your site performing?
Do you know your conversion rates?
Per entry point on your site?
Conversion rates per keyword phrase?
Conversion rates per search engine, directory or PPC program?
How about changing your PPC based upon the time of day or day of week?

If you don't know these details or you don't think they are important, you had better stay in the minor leagues. The PPC/PPI market is just as easy to manipulate as the Google or INK search algo's - and *much* more costly when things go awry. I am constantly tweaking my sites. Testing > making a change > measure the change > change again.

I recently came across a stat that the US eComm conversion rate average is 1.8% - so there is a starting point.




Reflect -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 7:34:22)

Mojojo,

What analyzers do you use for your log files?

TIA,

Brian




erinatkins -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 8:39:05)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: pageoneresults

You are not going to get quality SEO/SEM for less than $1,000 per month.

This is not absolutely true by any means. (I hate absolute statements about non-absolute things.)


I have to agree with DarlingBri on this one. I have had fantastic results for our clients for way under $1,000 per month. We can create new meta files, submit to search engines, etc... way under this amount.

quote:

But, you'll see a much higher level of quality results if you hire the right person and/or firm and that usually comes at a price. Keep in mind that the $1,000 I quoted, included PFI and PPC fees.
PFI and PPC fees can add up. I know one of our clients is spending $500 per month on these & thinks it is worth every penny. She quit day job & runs her storefront full time.

quote:

I am one of those who believes that long term SEO is dead. PPC / PPI is the future. The market is moving to a more traditional approach to online business where you should be advertising and worrying about *conversion* rates.


I think SEO & PPC/PPI work hand in hand. I think SEO will always be around. But I also think PPC does help & as more search engines

I think Overture has started this by announcing that they plan to separating contextual advertising from regular search results. If this works well I can see Google doing this.

Erin




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 11:41:35)

Mojojo, excellent post!

Erin, I hate to be the party crasher but, there are some things in your statement that may not be sufficient for a competitive market.

quote:

I have had fantastic results for our clients for way under $1,000 per month. We can create new meta files, submit to search engines, etc.

Create new metadata? There are really only two pieces of metadata that you need to focus on. The META Description Tag and the META Keywords Tag. Even then, they are a very small part of the equation. Performing this type of service and calling it SEO may be somewhat of a disservice as it no longer holds true in today's SEO/SEM environment.

There are really only 4 resources left that are free and of any value...
  • Google
    You can use their Submit URL form. But, if the site is not linked from another site already in the Google index then there is a good chance the listing will be ignored. Google prefers to find links to your site from other sites and will usually list it much quicker than if you used the free Submit URL form.

  • Inktomi
    Provides results to a variety of resources including Yahoo! and MSN. It is very difficult to perform well with a free listing in Inktomi. In fact, if you are in a competitive market, there is a good chance that you'll never see the top 30 positions with that free listing.

  • AltaVista
    Once King of the Hill, AV is no longer the power house it used to be. They've still managed to keep their foot in the market but generate very view quality leads based on my client database which covers a very wide variety of industries. For example, Google may generate 1,000 visitors per day for a site and AV will only generate 5-10 visitors. Again, if you are in a competitive market, a free listing in AV probably won't be of any value.

  • DMOZ - ODP
    The last free directory that is of value. Google uses the ODP as its directory results. A listing in DMOZ can be a very powerful thing if it was submitted to the proper category and you followed their submission guidelines.
Now, if you are promoting a site in another country, then there may be a few free resources that could be of value to your client. Outside of that, the days of organic SEO are numbered. Sure, you can optimize a title, META description, META keywords and throw in a few phrases on the page to bring up the keyword density. If you are in a non-competitive market you may just do well and it will most likely be all Google traffic. But, if you are in a competitive market, forget about the old school stuff, it doesn't perform like it used to. PPC and PFI are here to stay and anyone serious about marketing their business online should set aside a respectable budget for the SEM campaign. Based on my 8 years in this industry and ongoing campaigns, the $1,000 per month is a minimum based on my clients requirements.

Please everyone, don't fall into the trap of metadata and free submissions. It is only one part of the overall SEM equation. A true SEM professional is going to offer you a variety of ROI options and all of those are going to cost money. $39.00 per month is going to get you absolutely nothing but an inbox full of spam. If you are charging less than $100.00 per month for your services, you are undercutting yourself. The .com boom of 99 is over. It is no longer a free ride and the search engines realized that after the boom. If you want to make money, you are going to have to spend money to do it. The more money you spend, the more visibility you obtain, the higher your ROI (Return on Investment) and ROAS (Return on Advertising Spend) will be. That is what a true SEM professional will be looking at. As stated above, who cares if you are #1 in Google for a particular phrase. If there is no ROI/ROAS associated with that position, it is pretty much worthless.




powersitedesign -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 11:46:53)

Ditto Erin -

Since I started this thread, I have found a SEO company to partner with, and the results have been very good. [:D]

Also, I was able to find these services for way under $1k, so it can definitely be done. Just my two cents. I do also know this, I sleep better at night knowing that someone has the situation under control. It is near impossible to manage a web development business and stay up to date w/ all that is going on in the world of SEO.




Mojo -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 11:50:13)

quote:

What analyzers do you use for your log files?


I use a combination of Faststats and my own home grown analysis.

Log files alone will not give you the information that you need to dramatically improve your site. You need to track your users from the moment they enter your site through conversion. This usually means a cookie.

I log everything I need to know what visitors are doing on my sites - down to a very granular level. I can follow users around my site to find patterns. I have changed many pages because of this data with my most recent change allowing a product specific landing page to go from a 2.3% conversion rate to over 7%.

quote:

I think SEO will always be around.


In some form, yes - just look at MSN. For competitive commercial phrases you often need to click to the 3rd page to see actual search results. The first 2 pages are PPI. Of course, the PPI pages are supposedly ranked with a search algo, but that could easily change to an Adwords type ranking system where the more you are willing to pay the higher your ad goes (I know Google says it works slightly different, but I have *always* been able to buy the top spots - including the premium locations).

Also, does anyone think Google will not seek for the $$ after they have gone public? We know Google would like to have seperate searches for information vs buying. Froogle is the first step. Within 5 years, who knows where the technology can be?

quote:

It is no longer a free ride and the search engines realized that after the boom. If you want to make money, you are going to have to spend money to do it.


Nice post pageoneresults. The sun is setting on freeloading...

Edit: grammer




Mojo -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 11:53:47)

quote:

It is near impossible to manage a web development business and stay up to date w/ all that is going on in the world of SEO.


I don't get it... you don't want to do it, but you offer entry level SEO/SEM as a service?




powersitedesign -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 12:07:55)

Hi Mojojo -

I feel that a web development firm should offer SEO as a service, but my whole point in starting this post was that I like for our clients to see results. We were handling SEO in house, and to be perfectly honest, it wasn't yielding the type of results that I wanted to see.

As sales were starting to rise in the last quarter of 2003 I came to realization that I was either going to have to hire new staff, train them, etc. to stay up on SEO. I have always been a big fan of outsourcing, so it seemed to me to be the logical alternative.

So now what we do is get a wholesale package rate from a provider and then turn around and resell that rate for SEO to our clients. This includes submissions, keyword optimization and the pages of their site are all analyzed.

Basically what we do on setup of a new site has dramatically changed just from what we have learned from working with our SEO provider. It has been a learning experience and has turned out to be a good partnership.




erinatkins -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 12:15:26)

quote:

Create new metadata?
I agree only 2 pieces are critical Meta Description Tag and the META Keywords Tag. However some other can help.

For our clients if they want each page optimized for the search engines I will do it. If they want me to create a base file I will & I will let them know on some pages they should change the keywords for better rankings.

quote:

Based on my 8 years in this industry and ongoing campaigns, the $1,000 per month is a minimum based on my clients requirements.


Part of our services include looking over clients site - checking if words they want to be found under are included in site, if there are things in site that can hinder optimizaton.

I let clients know if they want to get in paid search engines - what the cost is.

I also go over PPC programs that have good results. I even handle this for some of our clients.

There are directories that are specific to some industries that have top ranking which are free. Getting linked in those can increase your ranking.

I do this for less than your $1,000 per month.

Most start up companies can not afford your kind of intensive SEO. If I told small companies it would cost 1000 to do this - I would not get the job.

I have been able to get most of our clients on the 1st page of the search engines you mentioned without having to sell the farm to do this. They are happy with the return on their investment.

Our clientele is smaller companies with more specialized items & our system has worked for the last 6 years.

We have also helped some less specialized companies with similar results.

Erin




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 12:28:14)

quote:

However some other can help.

Just out of curiosity Erin, can you show me which pieces of metadata that you are referring to? I'd like to see what you have there and offer some free advice on their use. I'd appreciate it.

If you are promoting a non-competitive site, free listings may work in the long term. If you are promoting a competitive site and the owner relies on the search engines to generate revenue, free listings may provide some ROI. But, nothing compares to a well planned PPC and PFI campaign and those cost money.

If it is a commercial site and the owner relies only on the Internet to generate revenue, then my $1,000 per month is peanuts compared to what some might spend. I know of some companies who easily spend upwards of $250,000 per month on their PPC/CPC campaigns. Its all relative to ROI. If spending a $1,000 per month is not going to make you a profit (ROI) then you are not going to spend that type of money. If you have a product that sells for $9.99 and cannot move an adequate amount of the product out the door to generate an ROI, you will not spend the money. You also will not survive unless you spend money elsewhere like traditional marketing.

A well rounded SEM campaign includes both Internet marketing and traditional marketing. If you take into consideration the expense involved with both, it could easily cross that $1,000 per month mark, easily. I have one client who has balked at the $1,000 per month but he'll spend $18,000 per year on a Yellow Page Ad. They are a regionally specific business so the Yellow Pages are their #1 source of referrals. But, I can take that $18,000 and within 3 months generate more than the Yellow Page Ads will in a year. He knows that but doesn't want to take the chance and is very conservative in his approach to online marketing. He enjoys the leads from his free listings and one lead could easily pay for his online marketing for quite some time. In fact, it happened the first month after we launched his site in 1996.

Its a crapshoot at times and you just have to experiment. Some industries are not as competitive as others and a free listing in Google can bring lots of quality leads. The problem with free listings is that they are extremely volatile. Don't believe me? Do a search for Google Update Florida and you'll see what I mean. Thousands of web sites that used to hold the top positions disappeared leaving many without income. If they had invested in PPC/CPC/PFI, they would not have been hit so hard.




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 13:14:39)

Here ya go, this should cause some heated debate! ;)

http://www.clickz.com/search/results/article.php/3114081

quote:

SEM firms typically bill monthly. They manage your PPC search advertising and paid-inclusion spend. For core professional services, which include complete SEO, expect to spend from $90,000 to $240,000 per Web site annually for a full-service SEM firm or $50,000 to $90,000 for a solo consultant or smaller SEM company.




powersitedesign -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 13:25:20)

Not to disagree w/ everything you have said, because you have made some good points. I do still however believe that $1k a month is a little steep, and the figures mentioned in this article floored me.

My firm has worked with several Fortune 500 companies in the past 12 years, most of which were outsourced to us from Ad Agencies, etc., and I know for a fact that they are not spending this type of money currently.

I do know this, a majority of our clients are in the real estate business. Being on page one in the searches is critical for their ROI and overall success. Currently I am getting them listed and am spending a considerable amount less which was my overall goal.




Mojo -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 13:35:15)

I think pageoneresults and myself are speaking about a different market level than some others.

Still, I think Google and the other SE's will figure out a way to remove *all* eComm sites from their information results at some point in time... If they don't they lose. Google is just *way* to easy to manipulate... ditto for INK. Pre-Florida, the Google results were embarrassing at times (I held the top 6 results on dozens of money phrases*). Even now, I am back in the saddle and have more traffic now with Florida. But, first and foremost I make sure I am profitable running ONLY ads. Anything from freeloading the SERPs is just gravy.

(* I need to define a money phrase. For me, it is a phrase that by itself will bring in $5,000 to $20,000 per month in online sales. For others it is much less and yet for many more folks it is much, MUCH more. )

Ranking for phrases that are not competitive (having millions in the SERPs does NOT make it competitive) or bring in only a few $1000 per month is really simple. Elementary actually.

For the most part, fortune 500 companies have done a very poor job integrating the web into their sales force. I think that was what Danny Sullivan was speaking about (at SES Chicago) when he said they will be entering the market hard over the next several years. They are not going to mess around with PPC models for 30,000 phrases.

It is time to stop being geeks and start being businessmen/women.




erinatkins -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 14:05:32)

quote:

Just out of curiosity Erin, can you show me which pieces of metadata that you are referring to? I'd like to see what you have there and offer some free advice on their use. I'd appreciate it.
I will email them to you when I have a chance. I know some are not used by major engines - but some are still used by some little guys.

I also know for a guideline for a do it yourself budget with paid engines can be seen here

Obviously our price styles are different & they both seem to have a market. As long as my customer is happy so am I.

I agree that PPC/PPI is important & I do recommend & handle it for some of our clients. It definitely helps & I work with the budget I am allocated.




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 14:28:22)

quote:

I also know for a guideline for a do it yourself budget with paid engines can be seen here.

Great article from Danny written in October 2002. Most of it is still applicable and some of it is not.

Let me try coming at this from a different angle. If you want to have success on the Internet, you will need to budget appropriately. If you just want to do so-so and don't rely on the Internet as your primary means of income, then you can do budget SEO.

Three, four and five word phrases are fairly easy to rank for, even in the Real Estate industry. I too have a real estate client who does well with their free listings. The thing is, this is not their bread and butter. They are a brick and mortar business and rely heavily on that for their survival. The web is a small part of their overall marketing plan. Since they only handle specific regions, we can only target regionally specific terms which are not as competitive as the money phrases that many other nationwide companies are targeting.

Please everyone, rethink your strategies. If you are providing SEO/SEM services at less than the average going rates, you may be undercutting your services. Sure, its a great way to bring on clients but, do you want to spend the rest of your working life behind the computer 12, 14 or even 16 hours a day working at minimum wage? I sure don't and realized back in 1998 that my services were worth much more than what I was charging. Since then I've changed my goals and have been very selective in bringing on new SEO/SEM clients. As soon as I see price becoming a primary focal point for the client and/or prospect, I normally send them on their way or refer them to one of many other firms I am familiar with that may be able to handle their request.

I've spent the last 8 years researching and testing. I spend an average of 1-3 hours per day participating and moderating at various forums. I am in tune with what is happening in the industry yesterday, today and have a pretty good outlook on what will happen tomorrow. The old school way of doing things does not work anymore, I say that with years of experience backing up my statements.

SEO (Search Engine Optimization) starts at the core of a web site. Taking an existing site and tweaking page titles, metadata and other on page factors is a start. But, it does not compare to a full scale core optimization which includes rebuilding a site from the ground up. It includes a complete reorganization of the site structure.

SEM (Search Engine Marketing) on the other hand, encompasses SEO and a host of other marketing services. These days the list of services is very long and detailed and includes such things as...
  • Cross Platform/Browser Compatibility (IE has many contenders standing by to take a little bit of its market share)

  • Search Engine and User Friendliness

  • Accessibility (Mandatory in some industries and growing very quickly)

  • PPC/CPC/PFI and all other paid means of advertising
The list goes on and on. There are sites that require forum development and management. There are sites that require daily research into visitor behavior to maximize ROI and ROAS. There are sites that you work on once and won't have to touch for months or even years. Those types of sites are usually information driven and are not in the e-commerce arena.

Stop selling yourself short! If you know what you are doing and understand the industry, you can easily bill your services at $100.00 per hour and up. This is not brain surgery but, it does require that you have an above average understanding of how SEO/SEM works and what benefits the client will see.

P.S. Also keep in mind that the numbers Danny is quoting in that article are based on single page submissions. Normally you will have at least 5-10 pages to submit so take that into consideration when planning the budget.




sweepthelegnate -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 21:56:17)

first of all I am really enjoying reading this thread...

here are somethings that come to my mind....

granted pageone seems like he services clients that may have a little more swing than most clients...but that doesn't mean that those other lower level clients aren't still there for others...

a lot has been said about budgeting for SEO/M...

and I am curious about what you do for people with smaller budgets. (pageone mentioned he bounces them to some one else...)

I guess what I am trying to get it is: What is the foundation? What would you do for a client with a budget of one or two thousand dollars? giving them a solid foundation to build on later? what things are most important? besides perhaps "building the perfect page" what do you do next?

thanks.




pageoneresults -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 22:06:00)

quote:

What would you do for a client with a budget of one or two thousand dollars?

That's a good start for a small company. That will probably get you 3-4 months of initial basic SEO and some SEM services. If it is a medium to highly competitive market, trim that down to 1 month! ;)




DarlingBri -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/15/2004 22:23:40)

Honestly, if the client had a budget of say $500 US, I focus on the really important parts... and that IS the page building. But that doesn't mean dropping down to the nit-pickiest levels. In general it would mean:

Internally:

1) Checking text colours against page background colours. (You'd be suprised how many people drop the ball on this one.)

2) Checking for H1 tags.

3) Checking for meaningful URLs.

4) Checking for meaningful page titles.

5) Checking for meaningful home page and top-level pages.

6) Checking for meaningful alt tags.

7) Looking at the site the way a search engine sees it, and re-arranging alt tags and content, or the design, as needed.

By meaningful I mean meaningful to search engines, of course, and that's all about keywords and phrases.

In super-competitive search engine markets like realestate and dating services, this won't make a huge impact (unless the site is a disaster and these changes are not so much tweaks as "dude, this is not how you build a site.") But then, I hate those clients, so whatever.

Externally, it really depends on the client and their niche. Obviously, there are all the paid submissions to do, although there's a trickle-down theory of economics there, and plenty of other strategies. I like text ads on other sites; I like static text ads the most because not only do they attract visitors, they attract search engines. I don't mean paid Google ad words or similar; I mean text ads at places like evolt and 3WA and whatever vaguely fits your clients profile. You're not looking for click-throughs; you want the ad to sit there and get indexed often. The higer ranked the site that your ad appears on, the better the indexed link quaility.

Or, like pageoneresults, you can post often on a highly ranked board relevent to your niche. If your URL is in your sig with chunky keywords and in your profile, it can be a very useful thing. He has an excellent keyword string in that linked sig of his; it's actually an admirable, subtle, and successful work of art.

Top lists are good; they're better if your client is a p0rn site, but how often do you get the perfect client? On the other hand, there's pretty much a leading top list for everything these days. Sometimes it's worth it; for other clients, it is just not going to fit their image.

Reciprocal link campaigns are something we run for a lot of clients, although many of our clients are public sector so we're lucky: people will stay to find the information they arrived for, and when they leave via a link to another site, we're not losing a sale.

If you're in a specialised knowledge niche, you can provide articles that are free to distribute, with a link back to your site, and promote them to other sites. People like free content.

RSS feeds are link-tastic, but there has to be changing content.

Etc, etc, etc.




Mojo -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/16/2004 2:16:53)

quote:

What would you do for a client with a budget of one or two thousand dollars?


I agree with both pageone and DB - it is a good start and I would do exactly what DB suggests. So much depends on your level of search engine knowledge, but I have had tremendous success with the static back link building ads that DB has mentioned. Pre-Florida, you could buy ads on 3 sites of PR5 or PR6 and have 100's of backlinks pointing to you for less than $100 per month. You would find your new site suddenly had a PR5 and could rank very well doing heavy organic optimization. Post-Florida, it may not work as well depending on your niche. You will still get the PR, but it won't carry as much weight if it is not in the same content category.

Anyhow, here is what my initial steps would be if given a budget of $2,000:

First, build the site and follow steps that darlingbri. Then...
Purchase books - "Persuasive Online Copywriting", "Your Marketing Sucks", "Tipping Point", "The Online Copywriter's Handbook" - these will cost ~ $100. Spend it out of your personal budget. Read all first. Read again. Then proceed to the following:

1. buy some static ads (spend no more than $300 per month, not Yahoo yet) - $1700 left
2. buy cheap log analyzer software ($80) - $1620 left
3. buy monthly site tracking software ($30 per month) - $1590 left
4. set up a small Overture account ($200) - $1390 left
5. purchase wordtracker (~ $250) - $1140 left
6. build up a large list of keyword phrases
7. run Adwords campaigns bases on your keyword list ($200 this is your first testing period) - $940 left
8. stop Adwords
9. analyze how your ads worked. What are your conversion rates per page? phrase? How much is each visitor worth? Change pages that have poor conversion rates
10. track your ROI for each phrase (you should be bidding on at least 10 phrases - ideally 50 or more)
11. adjust your bids on Adwords *and* Overture to reflect your best ROI phrases and your best volume phrases as long as they meet your profitability requirements.
12. Run Adwords and Overture ($400 total) - $540 left
13. repeat steps 8 - 11
14. You should be making money because you have dropped your loss leading phrases and worked on your best phrases. You have also *changed* pages and can now compare the changed pages. Make any changes needed based upon your actual evidence.
15. we still have money left - Run Adwords ($200) - $340 left
16. Repeat steps 8-11
17. Set up Froogle Feeds on your now well optimized for conversion pages. No charge.
18. Set up Yahoo Feed account ($100) - $240 left
19. If you want - apply to the ODP. It is not needed, but you may get in and *for now* that can be a boost.
20. Set up shopping.com account ($100) $140 left

Pay yourself back for the books with the left over $140.

With all your profit make a new marketing budget (hopefully larger) and start the process over. In addition, I would jump into the PPI market. In time you will have lots of static ads mixed with organic listings and PPC/PPI ads. This is just a starting point...

If you did not make enough money to cover all expenses and have a nice profit left over you should not have an internet business. In fact, you should not have *any* business and likely need to have someone manage your money for you because you are certain to blow it on the Casino's or lottery tickets.




erinatkins -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/16/2004 8:38:11)

quote:

Also keep in mind that the numbers Danny is quoting in that article are based on single page submissions. Normally you will have at least 5-10 pages to submit so take that into consideration when planning the budget


I try to keep entire site indexed if at all possible. Any page with specialized service is submitted.

quote:

What is the foundation? What would you do for a client with a budget of one or two thousand dollars? giving them a solid foundation to build on later? what things are most important? besides perhaps "building the perfect page" what do you do next?



Internally - Darlingbri has covered all the major points. I would add one thing to this - look at who my competitors are - look at their site & see how they compare it to mine.

I agree with alot of what Mojojo says - however I would add the Froogle data feed sooner - since it is free.

Adwords depending on word - could have a smaller budget. I would also have a budget with Overture.

Things I would add - Inktomi.

Erin




sweepthelegnate -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/16/2004 21:21:02)

first of all great info on my last question, thanks....

quote:

Log files alone will not give you the information that you need to dramatically improve your site. You need to track your users from the moment they enter your site through conversion. This usually means a cookie.


I am beginning to see that I would like to know what vistors are doing at my site.

Mojojo also mentioned that the would spend 80 of that 2000 on a cheap analyzer....I don't have any significant experience with this....any recomendations?




erinatkins -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/17/2004 17:54:25)

quote:

cheap analyzer


See if your hosting company offers this. Many web hosting companies do.




Mojo -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/17/2004 23:56:05)

I use FastStats from Mach5 for basic log file analysis. For my detailed conversion analysis I had to roll my own. I could not find one solution that did everything I need. Actually, I found a few, but they were tied to consultant services.

Erin - $2000 *is* a small ad budget... [:)]




Scotty -> RE: Outsourcing SEO (1/18/2004 2:04:13)

Anyone doing a comparison of all the great ideas that have been presented here?
Such as: Develop a small 2-3 page site. Then register under several domain names, with each being SEO in a different manner.
I see a problem in that to be truly effective there needs to be a sale at the end of the process, so maybe each site sells the same book?
Scotty




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