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GlenOaks
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From: New York NY USA
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paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/17/2004 18:51:49
Hi.
In 1999 I paid for my business express submission to Yahoo and was placed high in their index. I set up my site using all the tips about meta tags etc and enjoyed good rankings in Google as well. Then I added paid listings with Google Adwords and through Overture. Suddenly in December, like many others, my free listings disapeered leaving me to pay for all hits. I'm not sure what to do, or if it is possible to regain my "free" high ranking, regardless of how many links and corrections I make to my site. Whats the concensus view of this recent change at Google and Yahoo and whether once you pay you stay that way?
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BobbyDouglas
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From: Arizona
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 1:26:46
Paid Listings usually show up for the term you suggest. Although, paying to put your site in google/msn/yahoo won't help much more than if you optimized the site to be inside each search engine. There are over 100 different tricks used to get these results without paying a single penny. I know I get a few good hits just by submitting my site to various free directories.
After awhile, the bots will pick up your site. If you notice that you are not getting ANY bots at all, well then you are in trouble. Trading links might help increase your PR on google. One of my friends runs another forum I post at a lot named GIDForums. He has done SOOO good with his rankings in Google. You might want to ask some questions their about SEO.
One trick I learned is that if you can offer a free service, submit it to DMOZ, and then it will be listed inside Yahoo. There are so many other things you can to do increase your rakings.
Take a look at this:
Site:gidforums
Site:frontpagewebmaster.com
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 2/18/2004 1:38:27 >
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Reflect
Posts: 4769
From: USA
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 7:16:17
I feel your pain. Some genres were hit hard in December by Google, some were not. If you want to post a URL I'm sure we can compare notes.
Brian
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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5456
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From: Arizona
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 16:44:56
quote:
having my paid listing, presently located squarely at the top of the page in Google and Yahoo might lessen my chances of returning to my former high ranked free listing.
- I am not 100% sure, but I believe Google/Yahoo paid listing are not added to the directory. Thus having a paid listing does not effect your standing in the directory. However, if you have a piad listing, you would usually get more people to come to your site, and more links to your site will generate, and thus after a period of time your standings will increase.
quote:
Do either of you have any thoughts on my chances of getting returned to the first page- where I belong.
- Could be either way. Here is how I view it. If you were once on the front page, you should bounce back if you continue to repeat the same steps you did previously.
According to Google on 2/18 you have 8 pages that are indexed without the omitted results. Here for specifics
There are SOOO many key factors you must do in order to get the number 1 rank.
One of my sites is found #1 for the term: Top Fun Websites. But it is low in a lot of other categories. SEO is such a hard field. Very few people have mastered it.
quote:
can I submit golfstudionyc.com/golftips.htm without risking a penalty?
- As long as you submit it using THAT link, and using a description for THAT page only, you should be fine. DMOZ was soooo hard for me to get into. That damn quiz took like 10 tries.
Take a look at your server log and see what bots are indexing your site.
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 2/18/2004 16:45:57 >
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Mojo
Posts: 2431
From: Chicago
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 16:58:35
The only thing that matters to Google is lots of on content back links.
That has been proven over and over again and it is part of the reason that Google is not producing very good search results at the moment (compare to altavista or better yet - teoma).
Free listing for commercial sites are going the way of the Dodo. Likely, there will be some freeloading available, but it will be hyper competitive (if you are struggling now with the freeloader listings you wont stand much of a chance in the next few years). Think advertisements. If your business does not have the margin to survive in a advertising environment you need to quit. Now. You simply can't depend on free advertisment to support and grow a business long term.
All that said. It is still fairly easy to rank well in Google and INK. Just go get back links... buy'em, rent'em, beg for them or steal them. They are the current internet currency.
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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5456
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From: Arizona
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 17:23:40
quote:
The only thing that matters to Google is lots of on content back links.
- I kinda disagree with that. Can you prove it? I am still learning a lot of SEO, so maybe I am missing something.
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Mojo
Posts: 2431
From: Chicago
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 21:38:15
You can disagree, but it can be proven over and over and over....(remember the weapons of mass destruction fiasco last year?)
Google has centered their entire algo around Page Rank - which is based upon back links. The Florida update did a lot to remove a bunch of SE SPAM (is there really such a thing?), but a new crop has poped up.
Just look at competitive money phrases and then check backlinks. You will *never* be in the top 10 with on site optimization. But, you can rank a blank page with back links. Look up blog bombing on Google or your favorite search engine.
Also, look at a the sites from the members of OutFront. Most of their sites would be dead in the water without all the OutFront back links. Here is the reason why relying on freeloading listings is bad business: If Google had an algo update that diminished the importance of forum sites anyone relying on the PR gained from OF links would be nuked.
Don't think that has not crossed the mind of the folks at G. Some forums do not allow links in your signatures or in the post. This saves their outgoing PR power for those who pay... You can purchase a link, they place it on hundreds of pages and *poof* > a lot of PR power to a few sites...
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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5456
Joined: 5/15/2003
From: Arizona
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/18/2004 23:02:26
Would you agree that the only thing that matters to Google's PR is lots of on content AND back links.
Is this the same for indexing too?
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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5456
Joined: 5/15/2003
From: Arizona
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/19/2004 0:01:47
Maybe someone would be kind enough to split this. Because I would like to continue the discussion. I figured the "content" also plays the major role in PR.
Well I did lookup "blog bombing" on google, and I noticed that there were a lot of sites with "blog bombing". I didn't notice many sites without blog bombing on the site.
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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5456
Joined: 5/15/2003
From: Arizona
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RE: paid listings vs free listings in ranking - 2/19/2004 0:52:47
So after I have what I think is decent content, I just need a bunch of back links to get good PR?
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Printable Version 
Thank you both for your time and imput. I'm still wondering and would appreciate your opinions on whether having my paid listing, presently located squarely at the top of the page in Google and Yahoo might lessen my chances of returning to my former high ranked free listing. When I lost my place in Dec I scrambled around looking for why it happened and found an article in Searchenginewatch that addressed the possibility that Google and Yahoo may have changed their algorhythms sp? so that paid listings replace free listings for small business sites. My site: golfstudionyc.com had been listed high for 3 years under golf lessons new york city- which is where it belongs because that is what I do. Then it's GONE, sometime in December- my hits have dropped dramatically . I've since tweaked my title, description, and keywords to try and follow some of the most recent guidellines and to more closely copy another similar site that now occupies the #1 spot. I resubmitted to Google on Feb 7, and reupped with Inktomi. Do either of you have any thoughts on my chances of getting returned to the first page- where I belong. One final question to re: the idea of submitting again to DMOZ which I did initially in '99 I have added a free swing tips section but the submission guidelines at DMOZ caution against resubmitting sites- can I submit golfstudionyc.com/golftips.htm without risking a penalty? Sorry for the length of this post, but it's hard to find rea answers to some very basic questions. 
