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Mojo
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Content is dead... long live the link - 2/19/2004 0:08:59
If everything else is even content will win, but as it has been for several years now, backlinks (and internal linking structure) are hands down the most important aspect to SEO (at least for Google).
Of course, things will change, but who can predict the future, and what it will look like? I personally believe SE's will be dominated by paid ads for commercial phrases.
Why links still rule --
With all the talk all over the world about "weapons of mass destruction", query it on Google. Who is #1?
Search for "god" on Google. #1 is an MP3 site, #3 is video games, #6 is some kind of store and #7 is unrelated. These sites were all slammed to the top by SE pros. This is *after* Google wiped out the previous champions (mostly PHP and MP3 sites) of the term "god" during the Florida update.
Look up blog bombing and read about all the games those folks have at Googles expense...
Pick any profitable commercial product and look at the top 10. If the results are not dominated by eBay, Amazon, BizRate, DealTime, Shopping.com or any other comparison shopping network they are likely rules by sites with a strong link system.
A small part of the reason that OutFront members seem to be forever amateurs (IMO - an amateur is someone who wants to work for themselves, but are not currently able to do so) is they believe the garbage that the Search Engines and corporate marketing types tell them. Google wants everyone to be afraid of getting kicked out of their index. They want you to design your site and play fair so that their algorithm works. One of the biggest secrets on the net is how bad of an algo Google actually has. Since November there have been 3 major updates (Florida, Austin and now Brandy).
Why so many major changes? Because Google is being manipulated by every webmaster on the planet. It was just a few years ago that Sergey Brin stated "We think we are spam proof". The spam was always there... just a little bit under the relevant results, but usually still in the top 10. Google now wants to nuke SEO's - so they have been fighting a war of sorts with SEO types. And you know what? Google is losing. They are even trying to scare people off from using SEO's > Google SEO Scare Message. Each shot they fire at SEO's / Webmasters not only takes down some gamed sites, but they also lose a lot of the sites that made Google useful in the first place.
I am doing fine in the Google SERPS (even better.... embarrassingly better at times in INK) so there are no sour grapes here. Besides, I build all my sites based upon paid ads, freeloader results are just gravy (sometimes, a lot of gravy).
I just felt it necessary to shake things up a bit. There are way too many people stuck in the the proverbial "box".
Fire away!
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fullestop
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 2/21/2004 2:43:42
Hi Mojo,
What you say is right.. search for computers on google and you will find dell..No word of computer on the site..
check with next 10 lists and same.
but, this is not to say that content is dead..
what i have seen is a judical mix of both the strategies work well
cheers
Rahul
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erinatkins
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 2/26/2004 8:07:43
Here is a good Article related to this
Article says that you need both content and linking to get best ranking. The number of people who truly believe you can do one without the other is small and they just happen to be more vocal.
Article also said more people are using more than 1 word to search.
This is a good article.
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Reflect
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 2/26/2004 12:04:35
I have a great content scheme for "themeage". However I noticed my SERPs improved greatly with working links and making some of my links to unimportant pages dynamic. I have now achieved number one page for most of my terms. I think it is still a blend as in my genre most results seem mildly on topic and have large and small sites alike on the first page. Searching them for linkage I see mixed results on high VS. low quantities.
Brian
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Mojo
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 2/28/2004 0:04:59
quote:
Article says that you need both content and linking to get best ranking. The number of people who truly believe you can do one without the other is small and they just happen to be more vocal.
Hmmm.... that link does not work.
Anyhow - Both sides are correct, but the side that believes that links are by far the most important aspect of your site are *more* correct.
You can find sites in competitive markets (commercial) that rank well because of back links (see first post in this thread), but can you find a site that ranks in the top 10 for competitive terms that has zero back links?
This is not a principle, times change and so do search engines. It may be that in the future all commercial terms will only be PPC. Who knows?
EDIT: typos
< Message edited by Mojojo -- 2/28/2004 9:32:54 >
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/1/2004 8:29:23
Another try at article
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alansmith
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/4/2004 12:07:39
It is true the you can use links alone to drive traffic to sites.
However with out good content how long do you expect people to stay around.
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dotcompro
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/9/2004 15:14:49
quote:
If everything else is even content will win, but as it has been for several years now, backlinks (and internal linking structure) are hands down the most important aspect to SEO (at least for Google).
Mojojo I cannot agree.
While links ARE important, the design of the page is the determining factor.
As an example see MorrisonEquipment.com
Their primary keyword phrase is "Prototype developers & consultants"
Do a search on Google for Prototype developers & consultants and Morrison is in #1 position.
Now do another search for Link: MorrisonEquipment.com and you will see one other site linked to them.
I think this proves that content is much more important than links.
-----------------------
Reg Charie
DotCom-Productions.com
< Message edited by dotcompro -- 3/9/2004 12:18:35 >
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Mojo
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/9/2004 17:27:19
quote:
While links ARE important, the design of the page is the determining factor.
Your statement is not true (for the most part) and certainly not proven with the sample web site you gave. I don't mean to come down too hard, but there are way too many people that may actually believe that statement if left unchecked. If you can give some sites that back up your statement that would be a nice revelation, but...
Your example is way off base. Here is why:
The reason that site is #1 for a phrase that nobody searches for is just that: nobody searches for that phrase - it is non-competitive.
Overture shows that phrase was not looked up even 1 time last month.
Word tracker shows that phrase as non existant in the last 90 days.
In Adsense, you only have to bid 5 cents to be #1 because nobody wants that phrase.
It is non-existant in Overture as well.
Of the top 10 listings in Google that phrase only occurs on 1 site - the site you mention.
In fact, of the 4,285,199,774 web pages that Google has indexed that phrase NEVER occurs. It only seems to be listed in the header section (multiple times) on your sample site.
This is hardly proving a point. Rather, you are simple asking Google to look for a phrase that seems to be on just 1 site in it's index.
quote:
I think this proves that content is much more important than links.
No, no, no - You need to find a site that compares to the examples that I provided. I can make a site that ranks #1 in a week if my phrase is "mojo lives in chicago" (while it brings up 16k results, it seems noone has that exact phrase).
Things may change in the future (IMO the best search results are at teoma.com), but for now "Long live the Link".
< Message edited by Mojojo -- 3/9/2004 21:05:46 >
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dotcompro
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/12/2004 20:46:09
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mojojo
quote:
While links ARE important, the design of the page is the determining factor
Your statement is not true (for the most part) and certainly not proven with the sample web site you gave. I don't mean to come down too hard, but there are way too many people that may actually believe that statement if left unchecked. If you can give some sites that back up your statement that would be a nice revelation, but....
Your example is way off base. Here is why:
The reason that site is #1 for a phrase that nobody searches for is just that: nobody searches for that phrase - it is non-competitive.
Overture shows that phrase was not looked up even 1 time last month.
Word tracker shows that phrase as non existant in the last 90 days.
In Adsense, you only have to bid 5 cents to be #1 because nobody wants that phrase.
It is non-existant in Overture as well.
This has very little relevance. It is immaterial whether the term is a well used one on the list of searches, but how it applies to his site.
quote:
Of the top 10 listings in Google that phrase only occurs on 1 site - the site you mention.
In fact, of the 4,285,199,774 web pages that Google has indexed that phrase NEVER occurs. It only seems to be listed in the header section (multiple times) on your sample site..
That is called good use of the meta tags.
quote:
This is hardly proving a point. Rather, you are simple asking Google to look for a phrase that seems to be on just 1 site in it's index.
That is TOTAL BS. A search in google for Prototype developers & consultants turns up 28,900 pages, so it is hardly a non-competitive phrase, (In HIS industry). (Copied from the Google page - "Searched the web for Prototype developers & consultants. Results 1 - 10 of about 28,900. Search took 0.21 seconds")
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dotcompro
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/15/2004 0:03:45
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mojojo
ROTFLMAO!!
Laughing at yourself?
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Reflect
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/15/2004 8:29:04
quote:
The reason that site is #1 for a phrase that nobody searches for is just that: nobody searches for that phrase - it is non-competitive.
quote:
This has very little relevance. It is immaterial whether the term is a well used one on the list of searches, but how it applies to his site.
Reg, I think what Mojojo is trying to say is research the amount of times that term has been searched on in one month. While I am an advocate for throwing a large net, meaning optimize every page I still try to target terms that are "generic". While I try to stay out of specifics I will give a less used term that I target for one of my sites. Love spell. Now this term results in 2,150,000 results on Google. In Oveture it was searched on in the following progression:
Searches done in February 2004
Count Search Term
26739 love spell
3128 free love spell
1493 magic love spell
544 voodoo love spell
403 child love name see spell their
324 cast a love spell
171 black magic love spell
155 love binding spell
149 love secret spell victorias
129 love secret spell victoria
127 wiccan love spell
122 easy love spell
118 love perfume spell
107 lost love spell
105 casting love spell
101 book love spell
97 witch love spell
86 candle love spell
77 simple love spell
77 wicca love spell
75 love love spell
69 witch craft love spell
68 pagan love spell
64 cast free love spell
64 love rune spell
59 ivy love spell
56 entertainment love spell
56 lotion love spell
50 love spell kit
46 basic love spell
45 white magic love spell
45 true love spell
37 casting free love spell
35 free love online spell
33 powerful love spell
32 real love spell
31 chant love spell
31 herb love spell using
31 love make spell
30 black magick and love spell
30 santeria love spell
29 marriage love spell
28 aisha love spell
28 by love secret spell victoria
28 free easy love spell
27 isis love spell
25 called love magic red spell white witch
Now of course I do not go after all the variations but this list shows me 1) What sub terms or next tier of keywords I can branch of into. 2) What of those would be relevant to bring in traffic.
Now the page I optimize for this is a bottom level page that is a for sale love spell. This is one of my "money" pages. This is just one page. Not even my main page.
The point of my site is to generate sales. I see your example site is also in that thinking. My love spell page would equate to your page of http://morrisonequipment.com/custom_built_track_pads_for_your_AP200_or_Rayco_120_paving_machine.htm for trying to get it in front of a reader to make a sale but how will a surfer find this particular page? This I believe is one of the points Mojojo is trying to make.
quote:
It is immaterial whether the term is a well used one on the list of searches, but how it applies to his site
So going back to the term that you stated is relevant for your site: Prototype developers & consultants. How would a searcher even know that the company sells "Custom built track pads for your AP 200 or Rayco120 paving machine" or anything else than that term. I think optimizing your sub page would create way more leads than what you have targeted. It would also create more targeted traffic. Use this for each product and the "throw a big net" statement that I make time and time again would bear fruit.
I apologize for going this deep, just trying to show a point. I do not mean to be offensive.
Take care,
Brian
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Mojo
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/15/2004 11:18:47
quote:
Laughing at yourself?
Sure, why not?
The thread is moving away from the original intent which was links vs content. We still don't have an example of content beating out links.
For a good example you need a competitive phrase. Your example is virtually non-existant. Since there is only 1 site in the entire Google index that has that phrase it stands to reason that it is #1. The other sites in the results only have parts of the phrase.
If there were 20,000 sites that had your phrase (and they had nice backlinks) and your site was #1 with zero or few backlinks I would say you had a good point that we should look into.
Anyhow, it is all moot as I see you no longer have that phrase listed on your site.
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dotcompro
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/15/2004 16:25:38
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reflect
quote:
The reason that site is #1 for a phrase that nobody searches for is just that: nobody searches for that phrase - it is non-competitive.
quote:
This has very little relevance. It is immaterial whether the term is a well used one on the list of searches, but how it applies to his site.
Reg, I think what Mojojo is trying to say is research the amount of times that term has been searched on in one month. While I am an advocate for throwing a large net, meaning optimize every page I still try to target terms that are "generic". While I try to stay out of specifics I will give a less used term that I target for one of my sites. Love spell. Now this term results in 2,150,000 results on Google. In Oveture it was searched on in the following progression
Searches done in February 2004
Count Search Term
26739 love spell
3128 free love spell
---snipped
Now of course I do not go after all the variations but this list shows me 1) What sub terms or next tier of keywords I can branch of into. 2) What of those would be relevant to bring in traffic.:
Right, I understand and agree, but the main argument was the in order to hit the top spots you have to have links, which Mojojo said was the deciding factor in top rankings and I say its not. Whether or not the search terms are in high use has little to do with it, a search term is a search term, regardless of frequency. Frequency depends on popularity and there will be many more searches done for love potions than prototype developers & consultants. I am also in total accord with your use of the sub terms to branch off into. It makes good sense to review both your logs and the search popularity.
I could easily switch roles an play Devil's Advocate and say "I know its link popularity that rules.", as my FantasticMachines.com scores #1 or in the top 3 in just about any search engine when you search for graphic filters and we have over 5000 outside links.
quote:
Now the page I optimize for this is a bottom level page that is a for sale love spell. This is one of my "money" pages. This is just one page. Not even my main page.
The point of my site is to generate sales. I see your example site is also in that thinking. My love spell page would equate to your page of http://morrisonequipment.com/custom_built_track_pads_for_your_AP200_or_Rayco_120_paving_machine.htm for trying to get it in front of a reader to make a sale but how will a surfer find this particular page? This I believe is one of the points Mojojo is trying to make.
Finding this page is not difficult. Let us assume that the searcher is looking for track pads for his machine. How about using .... track pads rayco 120 .... for a search term? OH GOSH.. guess what comes up as #1 on Google?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Track Pads
Up. "Never Die" Track Pads. Track Pads Extra heavy duty track pads for your AP200
or Rayco 120 paving machine. "Tank Stoppers" Custom Security Gates. Phone: ...
morrisonequipment.com/ custom_built_track_pads_for_your_AP200_or_Rayco_120_paving_machine.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages
Products
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm.. it again seems that content rules.
quote:
It is immaterial whether the term is a well used one on the list of searches, but how it applies to his site
quote:
So going back to the term that you stated is relevant for your site: Prototype developers & consultants. How would a searcher even know that the company sells "Custom built track pads for your AP 200 or Rayco120 paving machine" or anything else than that term. I think optimizing your sub page would create way more leads than what you have targeted. It would also create more targeted traffic. Use this for each product and the "throw a big net" statement that I make time and time again would bear fruit.
See above results.
When the targeted search term is used the results are dead on. The Google description also tells the searcher that my client also sells Custom Security Gates (something that a user of that particular machine might want). When they click on the link they are informed that Morrison Equipment also does custom prototype work. I think this pretty much covers all my client's niche market.
quote:
I apologize for going this deep, just trying to show a point. I do not mean to be offensive.
Hey, no problem, :) nothing like a good discussion to get one reflecting on the merits of a method of marketing.
Best of luck,
Reg
< Message edited by Mojojo -- 3/15/2004 17:49:24 >
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Mojo
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/15/2004 17:47:23
Go to Google and run a search on your pharase prototype developers & consultants. Your site is not #1... it is not even ranked. Go to the site you claim ranks for your pharse > view source > search for "prototype developers & consultants " and it is NOT listed in the source code of your homepage. It used to be in the header - not any longer.
Maybe we neeed to define some things.
Phrase = the exact phrase in the specified order. To search for a phrase on Google you must surround the phrase with double quotes.
Terms or Keywords = no double quotes around the phrase (for google).
I am beginning to think your are not trying to experiment or prove anything. It seems you just want an argument. Your example show 28,000 results for the TERMS 'prototype developers & consultants'. For the PHRASE "prototype developers & consultants" there is now only 1 site - OutFront.
Can someone else verify this? I could be different results based upon IP/operating system/browser, but because of the souce code I know it is not.
I don't know what your angle is... but your posts are making it difficult for people to read this thread because your putting your entire post in block.
I will try to fix it, but I may just lock this thread and start new if I can't...
EDIT: added the definition
< Message edited by Mojojo -- 3/15/2004 18:00:08 >
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/15/2004 21:44:20
I don't even know where to start. I feel like I am talking with a mentally challenged teenager.
This is the phrase you started with "Prototype developers & consultants"
Now, you have changed your search phrase to "Prototype developers consultants"
HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE???? Since I doubt your abiltiy to actually find the difference I will point it out: You have an ampersand [&] in the phrase you originally stated as your example. Now, you are quoting a distinctly different phrase.
You don't rank for either phrase. You are just making stuff up.
Again....
You don't rank for either phrase. Your example can't work because you don't rank... Get it??
You don't understand the difference between keywords and phrases. A phrase does not have to be in quotes, but if you type in a phrase Google searches first for sites that do match the exact phrase then moves on to close seconds - unless a site dominates by a clever linking strategy.
I realize I am wasting my time... not to mention what could be a good thread.
< Message edited by Mojojo -- 3/15/2004 21:44:55 >
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Giomanach
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/16/2004 6:32:40
dotcompro,
You are fighting a losing battle here, trust me, picking at a point with Mojojo is a losing battle straight from the start.
See the image at the end of this post, and you will see that the ampersand is excluded from all searches due to the fact that Google reads it as the word 'and' - a very common word in web pages etc, so it is excluded from all searches.
You might also want to note - The ampersand also triggers HTML coding for special characters i.e. the copyright character. Therefore they should be left out of metas etc.
quote:
This is the phrase you started with "Prototype developers & consultants"
Now, you have changed your search phrase to "Prototype developers consultants"
Mojojo is correct, there is no difference, either of the search terms will give the same results. 28,500 results is hardly a decent amount of results, some search criteria can return millions of pages, and some of the pages will be repeated. However, I tend to find very few have the search criteria etc on the given link, I normally have to browse the site to find what I'm looking for.
Just because your site is the first one on the list of results returns doesn't mean it the best site due to content. Several of the other sites are far better than yours, and as Mojojo has stated, you have zero or few backlinks, this is not good for the visitors of your site, as backlinks will also improve your google rating.
I maybe in over my head here, but from what I've read, you have no idea of how search engine phrases etc work.
</$0.02>
Dan
<edit>And I'm a teenager</edit>
Thumbnail Image
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< Message edited by Giomanach -- 3/16/2004 11:34:20 >
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Reflect
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/16/2004 8:22:31
quote:
due to the fact that Google reads it as the word 'and' - a very common word in web pages etc, so it is excluded from all searches.
Just an aside "and" is what is called a stop word.
This reviews what a stop word is:
http://searchenginewatch.com/facts/article.php/2156061
This is a list of known stop words:
http://www.searchengineworld.com/spy/stopwords.htm
Again just an aside.
Brian
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dotcompro
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/16/2004 14:38:16
Giomanach you say,
You are fighting a losing battle here, trust me, picking at a point with Mojojo is a losing battle straight from the start.
It is when he will not debate the main topic but nitpicks terminology
You might also want to note - The ampersand also triggers HTML coding for special characters i.e. the copyright character. Therefore they should be left out of metas etc.
None of my metas use special characters.
28,500 results is hardly a decent amount of results, some search criteria can return millions of pages, and some of the pages will be repeated.
The fact that some search criteria returns millions of hits is not the issue. The issue is that a search for my client's keyword phrase returns his site in the #1 (or top) position out of 28,500 other sites. Driving TARGETED traffic to his site is the objective.
Just because your site is the first one on the list of results returns doesn't mean it the best site due to content. Several of the other sites are far better than yours, and as Mojojo has stated, you have zero or few backlinks, this is not good for the visitors of your site, as backlinks will also improve your google rating.
Again we are not talking about google rating but google listings. These are two different topics entirely. To see the page rank (in the google toolbar) a visitor would have to have the site open. If the visitor is at the site, then the objective has been accomplished. While backlinks WILL improve the page rank, it has NOTHING to do with the listing position which IS the point of this discussion.
I maybe in over my head here, but from what I've read, you have no idea of how search engine phrases etc work. <edit>And I'm a teenager</edit>
You are in way over your head. I am not a newcomer to SEO but have been doing this for clients since 1996.
Try these searches:
I could continue, but I think you get the point.
It is NOT page rank or backlinks that count, it is the position in the rankings in the search results.
In the first post Mojojo said "If everything else is even content will win, but as it has been for several years now, backlinks (and internal linking structure) are hands down the most important aspect to SEO (at least for Google). " and that is NOT true.
He has done nothing to back up his statement.
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Mojo
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RE: Content is dead... long live the link - 3/16/2004 17:52:35
Dan -
You are NOT in over your head and you are CORRECT that dotcompro has no idea of how search engines work. You are just young and naturally a tad inexperienced. With time, you will be very solid especially with your desire to learn and help others. That can not be said for dotcompro - who seems to know little for his supposed 8 years experience. Actually, I think he knows more, but he has talked himself into a corner and has simply closed his eyes and started swinging. For example - The phrases that he originally put forth (either one) he does NOT rank for.... Why keep trying to force a point when there is not a foundation to stand upon??
You understand the difference between quality vs quantity.
500,000 results means absolutely NOTHING if serious players are not involved. Some of the most competitive phrases give less than 30,000 results because they are so focused and each query usually represents many hundreds or thousands of dollars.
Nobody cares about searches for Virtual Racers... nobody. It is a straight zero (0) at Overture. As good sign of how vibrant a search category may be can be found by looking at how much advertisement is being run for the terms, how often it is searched for on Overture, wordtracker and how many spammers are playing in the field.
Dotcompro is not playing in serious fields (to be sure apply the easy tests I listed above). He seems to be in a very small pond and has chosen OutFront as a place where he thought he could flex his tiny buy zealous muscles.
It is easy to spot these types. Just look for the fixed stare, strained voice and throbbing neck.
P.S. - I am locking this thread down. It is way off topic and does not seem to be able to swerve back on track. If someone wishes to continue this in a new thread (or another Mod wishes to unlock it) feel free.
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