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Brunosworld
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H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/22/2004 18:55:43
Hey Guys, please review my site and give me some info on it. Let me know what you all think
http://www.h-cane.com
< Message edited by Brunosworld -- 2/22/2004 18:56:05 >
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BamseIsUnix
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 2:02:33
Please don't use tables for layout. Use CSS, position: absolute instead. Try to keep text as text, not images. For example, "Meet our staff" is not recognized by the search engines. If you really must use images instead of actual text, put them into the keywords on that page. The site looks good, but we aren't here to comment that, are we? ;)
And notice that many, many people don't want to use Flash/Shockwave in their browsers.
Regards,
Bamse
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d a v e
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 3:11:04
and exactly where does it say that you can't use tables for layout? use what's best for the job! I know all the reasons for using css-p but i want to know why i *can't* use tables.
quote:
And notice that many, many people don't want to use Flash/Shockwave in their browsers.
eh? who? last time i knew there was over 98% or something of users with flash plugin. of course an html skip intro would be useful for those few without it, or those with it who don't want to use it (?)
confused :)
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 9:07:24
quote:
ORIGINAL: d a v e
and exactly where does it say that you can't use tables for layout? use what's best for the job! I know all the reasons for using css-p but i want to know why i *can't* use tables.
quote:
And notice that many, many people don't want to use Flash/Shockwave in their browsers.
eh? who? last time i knew there was over 98% or something of users with flash plugin. of course an html skip intro would be useful for those few without it, or those with it who don't want to use it (?)
confused :)
It is being "suggested" that you switch over to css and xhtml. Think about all the html tags that are being depreciated. This is being done to go towards usage of css.
Tables are for tabular data.
CSS is seperating content from style.
As far as flash pages are concerned if you look at the major business out there, they do not use flash intro pages. If you are desiging a web page, aren't you supposed to be as professional as possible? Also aim for the highest standards? I'm sure that flash has its place, but personally, I would not use it nor do I like it on an intro page. Also, it is just one more click that i need to make to get to the heart of the site.
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d a v e
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 9:35:01
quote:
Tables are for tabular data. yes but where in the spec does it say that you can only use them for that or rather where does it say that you can't?
pages made using table for (other than for tabluar data) still validate (if done correctly) and while i'm not saying that you shouldn't always strive to separate content form presentation i am just questioning using css for a job that tables can do better *sometimes*.
I don't think you can say css or tables, choose the best method for the task, at least i don't know how you can still say quote:
Tables are for tabular data. and show no explanation (other than saying separating content from presentation) for why you can't use it for layout ;)
I wholeheartedly agree with your comments (in the last post) re flash - but it seemed like you were saying that users didn't want to use it per se, not that it was a poor design choice in most cases.
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Giomanach
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 9:46:47
TIme to swing the argument
Tables were first designed to display numercal and textual data in documents, this digressed into showing data within web pages. They are mainly used to hold the data, and it allows it to be made easily readable. However, since then, tables have moved onto laying out the pages, and is now being deprecated due to CSS. Tables can also make the site look atcky and "amateur" like. However, if the tags and attributes are used correctly a very professional site can be produced. (The BBC is a good example, sorry M, I couldn't think of another).
Nowadays, tables are very rarely used, and have been replaced for layouts by Divs layers, of which are easier to use and can be manipulated easier. and Tables are slowly going back to the usage of displaying data. Oh BTW, why do you think <td> means table data?
I myself now use divs in place of tables. Here is the latest addition to one of my sites, still very much under construction, but it already looks good, to me it does any way.
Dan
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 10:46:03
quote:
ORIGINAL: Giomanach
TIme to swing the argument
Tables were first designed to display numercal and textual data in documents, this digressed into showing data within web pages. They are mainly used to hold the data, and it allows it to be made easily readable. However, since then, tables have moved onto laying out the pages, and is now being deprecated due to CSS. Tables can also make the site look atcky and "amateur" like. However, if the tags and attributes are used correctly a very professional site can be produced. (The BBC is a good example, sorry M, I couldn't think of another).
Nowadays, tables are very rarely used, and have been replaced for layouts by Divs layers, of which are easier to use and can be manipulated easier. and Tables are slowly going back to the usage of displaying data. Oh BTW, why do you think <td> means table data?
I myself now use divs in place of tables. Here is the latest addition to one of my sites, still very much under construction, but it already looks good, to me it does any way.
Dan
I think that Dan has basically explained this better then I could right now with a horrible migraine.
See, My, what I call advantage is that I am learning/teaching myself web design in an era of change. Things are changing to make pages look better and to work in future browsers, as well as past browsers.
From all the searches on css that I have done, I have found tons of pages that to me, look way better with the css layout then with a table layout.
Also, and this is soooooo important to remember. The lesser (is that a word? lol) amount of coding that you have on a page is a savings on bandwidth. If you can accomplish a layout with a div, which requires much less coding then a table layout, who wouldn't go for it and learn it?
lol, I'm just a css adict, that thinks that css is the way of the future. I'm happy that I did't learn faster as I would have to unlearn some things to learn new things. if that makes sense.
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Giomanach
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/23/2004 10:56:43
quote:
Also, and this is soooooo important to remember. The lesser (is that a word? lol) amount of coding that you have on a page is a savings on bandwidth. If you can accomplish a layout with a div, which requires much less coding then a table layout, who wouldn't go for it and learn it?
The exact same reason why I turned to div layers. Mom, if you have a migraine, get some rest, I can look after this lot, if I don't you know M will. I take it you haven't been looking at e-mail, you have a few from me .
Get some rest, and keep away from the computer for a while, it will help trust me.
Take Care
Dan
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Brunosworld
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 0:45:49
Hey guys, aren't div layers only positioned on the page with Left and Top attibutes. I didn't want the site to be stuck on on the left corner, I wanted it to be in the center and Layers are usually always left and top. Can someone shine some light on this.
Also, aren't a lot of pages now a days built with menus as graphics and not text, you just use the alt tag in the HTML.
Basically tables for me get the job done, I understand that it does not look good at all especially underneath the nav bar which is an empty space, which I will fix after the weekend, this whole site with graphics and everything was built in under an hour. Not enough time to tweak, just basically get it up and running to promote the event on the 28th
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Giomanach
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 4:07:29
quote:
Hey guys, aren't div layers only positioned on the page with Left and Top attibutes. I didn't want the site to be stuck on on the left corner, I wanted it to be in the center and Layers are usually always left and top. Can someone shine some light on this.
Not quite, bottom and right attributes can be used, but if you use one large div layer to set the size of the page, then, use the position: relative; coding, it will place the divs in a relative osition to the ones above it. Simple
quote:
Also, aren't a lot of pages now a days built with menus as graphics and not text, you just use the alt tag in the HTML.
Yes, but these slow down the loading time of the page. Plus when using normal links and CSS to create the nav bars etc, you can always put the title attribute into the anchor tag.
quote:
Basically tables for me get the job done, I understand that it does not look good at all especially underneath the nav bar which is an empty space, which I will fix after the weekend, this whole site with graphics and everything was built in under an hour. Not enough time to tweak, just basically get it up and running to promote the event on the 28th
I use Notepad, and use div layers to create my pages, and it only takes me 20 minsutes to get my layouts right, and an added 20 mins to get all the content in. It's a hell of a lot quicker than using plain old tables.
Dan
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d a v e
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 4:15:58
enough of the table bashing - I'll leave you css evangelists to it!
I've seen this subject go around and around on the dreamweaver forum and elsewhere so i think it's best just to leave it now.
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 7:14:21
quote:
ORIGINAL: d a v e
enough of the table bashing - I'll leave you css evangelists to it!
I've seen this subject go around and around on the dreamweaver forum and elsewhere so i think it's best just to leave it now.
Actually Dave, I'm not using any editor to do my coding at this point. I have frontpage, but am learning the hand coding first. I think that it is best to know how the code works before using something like frontpage and dreamweaver. I use homesite to do my coding. ITs and excellent program. And I am still learning how to use this as well.
In my opnion, I don't think anything beats the hand coding. You really know what is going on when you do this. Sure it is taking me so much longer to learn this way, but, I am learning the correct way to do this. I do use frontpage for family things, but I still prefer to learn the coding that goes on behind the scenes. Thats why when someone asks a question in regards to how something like CSS works in front page, I'm not the one to give the answer on something like that. If I notice something that I know is wrong in the code, then I will state what I see, but as far as getting something to work in the program, well, I'm not familar with that aspect of it all, yet.
So my opinions in regards to tables and the ease of use with divs comes from hand coding. In my opnion I think that tables are more difficult and take more code to lay them out. Divs, I think they are sooo much easier!
quote:
Brunosworld Also, aren't a lot of pages now a days built with menus as graphics and not text, you just use the alt tag in the HTML.
You can use graphics with css as well to layout your menus,
Here is a site for you to check out. It has lots of menu suggestions on here that might interest you 
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d a v e
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 8:37:24
thanks for the links but i don't need them.
I'm no css expert but i know how to code and where to look for help when i get stuck. I've been making sites since 1996 and i've still got a lot to learn, but don't treat my like a newbie. also dan, yes I did realise that TD means table data ;)
my only point has been
Please don't use tables for layout. Use CSS, position: absolute instead. and asked for an explanation of why i can't use tables. Yes i know css is 'better' and how to replicate all the work that i might do with tables with css.
but please tell me why you shouldn't use tables?! everyone (well you and dan ;) are saying oh , don't use tables, separate structure from presentation, but what's a div? a generic container that has no semantic meaning anymore so than a td.
my point is and has been all along that tables are still a valid way to do things, especially until css support becomes more robust and we stop having to support old crappy browsers.
my argument isn't which is better, only that tables are a valid method.
re: handcoding yep surely the best way to do it, but not the quickest, each to their own. i prefer to use Dreamweaver and then tweak by hand. then of course tables (if i'm using them) don't take any longer. as for saving a few bytes on the kind of sites that i make it's not worth switiching to pure css layout only for that reason. granted on a larger site with complex nested tables or, just lots of cells then css would eb the way to go.
all along you seem to have the impression that i'm anti-css. not in the least, it's the best thing since sliced bread. I just think that you shouldn't necessarily forgo the use of tables for simple layouts viewing them as some sort of voodoo using table cells for non-tabluar data if it offers a simpler and therefore possibly better solution that only css. of course if css is the better option then choose that.
btw i'm sure you tempted to do what i do and look in my profile for my hompage and see whether it stands up to the test: well it doesn't. as most designers i'm a couple of years behind and i've deliberately left out the doctype to force quirks mode to get my table(!) vertically centred... tsk how terrible is that !
still new site on the way, just haven't decided yet whether to go with tables or css only ;)
oh and dan you might want to take a look at your site in opera (i'm using 7.23 win 98se) it looks a bit messed up , i know it's still at the early stages and thought you might like to know! (http://aa.1asphost.com/giomanach/win2k/index.html )
well hope that's finally cleared that up it's getting tiring and i only have limited energy inbetween working and trying to my part-time job, and make websites, and learn more css, Finnish, etc...
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Giomanach
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 8:40:14
quote:
oh and dan you might want to take a look at your site in opera (i'm using 7.23 win 98se) it looks a bit messed up , i know it's still at the early stages and thought you might like to know! (http://aa.1asphost.com/giomanach/win2k/index.html )
That's my HTML than anything else, I haven't as yet got the Div layers sorted out. I'ts going to be up for review soon anyway, so you can look then
Dan
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 8:54:31
quote:
thanks for the links but i don't need them.
Actually Dave, the links weren't ment for you, they were given to Brunosworld to look at.
No one is treating you like a newbie, you are asking questions as to why, and I am answering them (how that makes you think you are a newbie, I'm not sure), and saying that it is just my opnion as to what is coming up with standards and things being depreciated. Also, why wait until it is time to use things to learn them. Better to be ahead of the game.
As far as not using tables, what I am learning is that tables are for tabular layout. Not design. That is what caused most of the problems with web design, people using things for what they weren't ment to be used for. I'm learning by standards and what is the correct way to do design. And maybe it is going to take me longer to get to the point of designing, but in the end, for me at least, it is going to be worth it.
quote:
btw i'm sure you tempted to do what i do and look in my profile for my hompage and see whether it stands up to the test:
I generally don't look at profiles. And if I did, believe me I am far from saying that you have something wrong just by going to your profile. I think the only time that should be done is if someone posts in here and asks the question If I look at a profile it is to see who the person is, and if they have a site and I go and look at it, I dont do it to judge them, I do it to see what product that they have to offer.
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tjpitches
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 10:53:40
i would actually LIKE for someone to treat me like a newbie! -- and have a look at my site in light of your healthy exchange here.
i use tables for my menu, but have been told to consider CSS.
could some of you look at the site and share your thoughts on how css would be better or not, for my menu?
it's a shared border.
www.sunnyridge.org
thanks, gang!
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 20:14:17
quote:
ORIGINAL: tjpitches
i would actually LIKE for someone to treat me like a newbie! -- and have a look at my site in light of your healthy exchange here.
i use tables for my menu, but have been told to consider CSS.
could some of you look at the site and share your thoughts on how css would be better or not, for my menu?
it's a shared border.
www.sunnyridge.org
Hi tjpitches,
Welcome to the family.
I love your site! Your pages are to the point and look very nice.
thanks, gang!
your whole site as far as I can see can be done in css. Your slideshow at the top, not sure about, not that far along with CSS to know if it can be or not.
Your menu can be done in css. And you dont' even need a graphics program to do the button colors, it can be done in css.
If you click the link, well actually the word on the above reply where I have something quoted to brunosworld, you will find a site that has tutorials of sorts for menus.
I find that doing tutorials are the best way to start. Go to the links section Here in this forum, as well as Here. You will find many links to different things that will help you. Once you start learning, that is if you don't know anything about css, then come back and post questions.
There are many tutorials on line as well as some very reasonable classes that you can take on this.
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tjpitches
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/24/2004 22:49:09
thanks for the feedback deb!
i will visit the tutorials and see what i can do.
all of you are just great. i have visited and belonged to SO many groups and forums, but NONE are as helpful and caring as all of you. what a great community.
perhaps i'll be back in the near future with a css web for all to see.
deb, thanks too, for your kind words on the site ... prosepective adoptive families seem to be happy with it too.
tj
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/25/2004 9:23:55
quote:
ORIGINAL: tjpitches
thanks for the feedback deb!
i will visit the tutorials and see what i can do.
all of you are just great. i have visited and belonged to SO many groups and forums, but NONE are as helpful and caring as all of you. what a great community.
perhaps i'll be back in the near future with a css web for all to see.
deb, thanks too, for your kind words on the site ... prosepective adoptive families seem to be happy with it too.
tj
No problem TJ, I think your site covers some great things. My daughters future husband is adopted, and I have several cousins who have adopted out of country, so this is a good site that you have going. Also daughter and her future husband do plan on adopting as well when they are ready for children.
One other tutorial that is mentioned that I need to say something about is the westciv bundled courses. They are self paced and pretty good.
And lvsonline is another great site to find a beginner css course, if you sign up there though, let me know before hand as I get credit for people being referred to them.
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LoriL1212
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/26/2004 2:35:16
oooops, don't want to flog a dead horse, but do want to say that I use both css and tables. I will continue to use tables until I see it in black and white that it should no longer be done....
Another thing that I read somewhere above - about tables making sites look "amatureish" - I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement...
Again, don't want to start a debate or anything, but I am NO amature, and utilize tables heavily in all my work.
... as for the original thread topic:
- I am one who dislikes the flash; can it not be incorporated in the front page as a banner or the like...
- I also am against "splash pages" - ones with no content other then an image or a flash movie. No good for search engines. I want to see what I came for immediately - not some pic or movie - JMHO.
- Need more content on front page. I am not fond of the yellow text, or placement of the Latest News altogether.
- Some pics would be cool too
- Take yellow bar out of Cayne Says page - does not fit scheme.
- Change link color in site
- Eliminate scroll in Events page; that could be a script or an animated graphic/flash
- add more paddding to tables, and justify text
Hope I did not offend ;)
< Message edited by LoriL1212 -- 2/26/2004 2:43:13 >
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/26/2004 8:19:02
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoriL1212
oooops, don't want to flog a dead horse, but do want to say that I use both css and tables. I will continue to use tables until I see it in black and white that it should no longer be done....
Another thing that I read somewhere above - about tables making sites look "amatureish" - I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement...
Again, don't want to start a debate or anything, but I am NO amature, and utilize tables heavily in all my work.
... as for the original thread topic:
- I am one who dislikes the flash; can it not be incorporated in the front page as a banner or the like...
- I also am against "splash pages" - ones with no content other then an image or a flash movie. No good for search engines. I want to see what I came for immediately - not some pic or movie - JMHO.
- Need more content on front page. I am not fond of the yellow text, or placement of the Latest News altogether.
- Some pics would be cool too
- Take yellow bar out of Cayne Says page - does not fit scheme.
- Change link color in site
- Eliminate scroll in Events page; that could be a script or an animated graphic/flash
- add more paddding to tables, and justify text
Hope I did not offend ;)
Hi LoriL1212, WELCOME to the forums!
BTW, please don't think when you give your opnion that you are offending anyone in here. We place things for opnions. And we also enjoy debating our opnions in a friendly way
As far as tables, I'm coming into the learning area where it is telling me that tables are supposed to be used for tabular data. And design should be used with CSS. So I'm learning it this way. But this is just my opnion and what I am learning.
I'm sure that flash has its place, but I just don't like those intro pages with music blasting my ears and all that movement. Just let me into the site so that I can see what the site is all about.
I'm also not a fan of certain color fonts etc..Also black backgrounds, they destroy my eyes. Anyone with slight to severe eye problems will have a problem with certain color combos.
Anyhow, great to have you here!
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
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d a v e
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/26/2004 13:40:42
i think you have to try and match the level of critique to the level of design - both in terms of technical/creative skill and in terms with how new they person is.
personally i would rather receive lots of constructive criticism than be treated so gently that no-one points out anything wrong. of course if you're a newbie and asking them it's not nice to get a long list of 'faults' and could-do-betters!
however i do believe in pointing out major things that newbies tend to get wrong so they don't keep repeating the same (major) mistakes: doing this in a postive way and guiding them towards better design is the way to go, but it's is a skill in itself - and not one i've perfected yet!
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David Prescott
Gekko web design
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Peppergal
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/26/2004 22:07:48
Well, I'll throw my hat into the ring here.
I use a mix of CSS and tables as well, because that is what works best for the types of sites I am working on right now....real estate sites where the majority of the pages are just repeats: picture, description, picture, description, picture, description. I want my sites to make as much sense as possible in NN4, so I cannot "float" images next to text, though I can use "align=left" but that tag is deprecated, no? So to use a pure CSS layout with my types of sites would render a very clumsy page for NN4 users.
I want to avoid using tags that are deprecated, so I style my tables and cells with CSS rather than traditional HTML coding.
Tables are a lot quicker to use, and they do validate when I use CSS to style them.
--let me edit this: they were quicker to use when using FP before I discovered that annoying junk cold that FP puts in, that I have to go back and remove.--
That said...I am moving to be less and less dependent on tables. If I can do with with CSS, I do. Why?
Progress. Keeping up with the newest technology-hee hee, hasn't CSS2 been out for six years though? SO, I'm slowly humping my way from HTML something or other, where I started 18mos ago, thru HTML 4.0, to CSS1 and CSS2, and now I'm starting to dabble with XHTML strict.
Don't know what exactly this contributes to the conversation...
< Message edited by Peppergal -- 2/26/2004 22:15:05 >
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Northeast PA / Poconos/ Lake Wallenpaupack Real Estate
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Peppergal
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/26/2004 22:13:54
Now, to actually comment on the site -
I would really get rid of your scrolling text (I saw it on the services page). It is very difficult to see and doesn't look as professional as the rest of the site - I like the colors though I think the font is a wee bit too small.
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wallenpaupacklakeproperty.com
Karen's Real Estate Blog
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Shirley
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/27/2004 10:19:31
Just for grins I checked 3 sites. CNN , Yahoo and eBay. All 3 use tables.
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c1sissy
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 2/27/2004 10:29:20
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shirley
Just for grins I checked 3 sites. CNN , Yahoo and eBay. All 3 use tables.
Know what is really interesting? Jeffery Zeldman has a very intersting write up about Yahoo in one of his books that I have. He was saying that if they went more towards css they would save a ton in bandwidth. I'm sure that the same would apply to cnn and ebay.
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As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
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hoosieradvisor
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RE: H-Cane.com Website Review - 3/1/2004 9:36:45
I toyed with the idea of a splash or flash intro - or whatever it's called - but nixed the idea after an overwhelming negative response from my wife and daughter. They go with their gut and aften are right on target.
Your intro is fine for what it is, but might be a nuisance after seeing it once. Even once, though, might be too much. When I went to your intro I sat there thinking, "How long is this going to go on?"
Also, the contstant music, after entering, was definitely a nuisance. It works for about 5 seconds, then it drowns out any attempt to read your message.
The site looks great. Nice color scheme.
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