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BobbyDouglas
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 11:23:18
quote:
But the problem is, you can`t do something more if you use these QTVR or Java Software Tools.
They don`t have the possibility more to accomplish.
- Wrong. www.imatronics.com
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 4/8/2004 11:23:53 >
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helge
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 13:41:49
okay, you have right - more funktionally! But the Design???
And the navigation is also a little bit strange.
I miss some informations about the rooms and so on.
But it`s more interactive than some ohers.
I try to show you what i mean, i work on a flash version in this style!
I work through the night
Helge
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 15:10:52
Ok, be sure to use ONE single image.
I will really be suprised if this turns out nice. I still have not found ONE good flash VR- that is still around the same size as the java/quick time ones.
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Nigel
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 15:17:04
Bobby - look at the windows - they are all blown out. The car interior is only a partial view when a car interior really needs to be a full sphere, it's not much good if most of it isn't in view - the same would apply to a small bathroom. The exterior shots are OK.
It is of course your choice, I can only offer advice based on my own experience as a professional VR tour producer.
Helge - your kidding me aren't you? That sample is flat and it's like looking through a keyhole. If I offered it to a customer I'd certainly get shown the door.
quote:
You only have to split the panorama into several slices and strech them.
It's not quite as simple as that. The mathematics behind dewarping an image are far more complicated. The basic principles started as far back as Isaac Newton and progressed from there. Spherical viewers use very complicated algorithms to reproduce the visual effect. Look at your flash viewer and then look at the one I've used in the sample posted earlier.
I'd love to see it done that well in flash. If you really can do it take the pano from my sample (you'll find it in your web cache) and show it in a spherical flash viewer. I'll gladly eat humble pie until it comes out my ears.
Nigel
< Message edited by Nigel -- 4/8/2004 15:17:45 >
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 15:29:32
Helge,
Sorry I dind't answer your earlier question fully.
A virtual tour can be much more than a series of 360 panoramas. You can add interactive image maps, text, voice, movies either within the tours or to accompany them. You can have very hi-res zoomable tours to show intricate detail. And all this can be done wihtout flash. it is however, possible to intigrate the Java/Quicktime tours with flash and have interactivity between both.
I don't believe in just one solution - it depends on the subject matter and the application together with bandwidth considerations and not least of all the customers own budget. The latter being why most stick with a basic tour backed up by text.
quote:
okay, you have right - more funktionally! But the Design???
And the navigation is also a little bit strange.
I miss some informations about the rooms and so on.
I'm not sure what you meant by this - could you expand a bit please? I'm always keen to listen to others opinions be they critical or complimentary.
Nigel
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 15:40:01
Nigel
- Can you make a VR using a single shot as well as multiple shots. Piece it together for us to look at?
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 17:29:07
I don't presently own a one shot system so I can't do you a like for like comparison.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/8/2004 18:55:36
That is too bad. The 0-360 Lens is more expensive than a few others I have seen. I also noticed the quality of it is a lot better, and seems to be equal to those that you stich.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 10:37:59
It is very difficult to compare just by looking at the tours as they differ in file size and resolution. The tours in my samples and those at the 0-360 site are both shown in the same java viewer - ptviewer.
The panos in the tour of Northop Hall hotel are all fully sperical so are displaying more information. The image size ranges from 83kb - 142kb with the majority being around 125kb.
Those on the 0-360 site are cylindrical with a limited field of view yet range in size from 113kb-182kb. two thirds of the panos on display exceed 150kb.
If you show less information but use a larger file size then the quality will appear better. You can only do a strict comparison by shooting the same scene with both systems. Display the same field of view with the same file size.
If the 0-360 lens is of better quality then it will prbably deliver better results than other similar systems. It may well be OK for your application and be best for your needs - there is no right or wrong here. It's a case of the best tool for the job.
With a camera and lens system it is possible to create very high resolution panorams that can be delivered full screen but this is only suitable for broadband viewers. It's unlikely that will be required for real estate.
If the one shot sytem is easiest and quickest for you to use and it meets your requirements then it may be the right choice. It's no good for me because I provide options for spherical panoramas and high resolution zoomable panorams. I like the control I have to deal with varying light sources such as a window on a sunny day. In many cases the view out of a window is important.
It is possible to deal with that aspect with a one shot sytem by shooting the same scene at 2 different exposures then merging the resultant panoramas with something like photomatix:
http://www.multimediaphoto.com/photomatix/
Sorry - don't mean to complicate it further for you but if you're shooting an expensive property with fabulous views through the windows you really do need to capture them.
Ok - I've rabbited on long enough. I hope you make the right decsion for you. if I can be of any help please let me know.
One last thing - make sure you speak to some existing users of the one shot system if you go for it to get an independent view. I believe the scratch easy and are hard to clean buts thats only what I've read on VR forums.
Enjoy your Easter eggs.
Nigel
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IgotDreams
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 10:41:31
I have to jump in here and give my 2 sense. First of all I am not an active member of this board. I am a webdeveloper that works with SOE (search Engine Optimization) quite extensively, and this post keeps popping up in the search engines because my domain name I posted before. Every once in a while I see this post and pop back in to see if anyone has commented.
Second, you may be surprised to know that after I bought that piece of crap ONE SHOT 0-360 lens from 0-360.com and they would not take it back, and I intentionally searched the web for people discussing problems they had with it. This post had came up.
I agree with Nigel on the one shot lens, it has its problems. Like I discussed earlier the one shot lens does not work well for low light situations, has a huge image quality issue (pixelation and focus) and has a limited view.
I also have various types of Virtual Tour Solutions. I have the one shot lens (0-360.com), a phoenix super fisheye lens (limited view 155 degrees I think), kaidan tripod head, and the IPIX 185 degree lens (tripod head & software).
This is what I do, I take my photos with IPIX lens (did I mention 185 degrees of view, that's 2 photo's with 5 degrees of overlap) on an IPIX tripod head (which compensates for the nodial point, it has 2 positions in 2 different directions) then I use photoshop to clean up, use their software to stitch (also place a tripod cap, in other words hide the tripod) and then I upload it to my own website ExtremeVirtualTours.com where I use a Java Applet to display the rectangler JPG.
So I bypass IPIX's hosting fees and there ugly viewer, I use my own. IPIX does price gouge you with that software, but I am sure I can proably use something else.
I am a Flash Developer as well, flash is just as good as Java. That 360inovision website that Giomanach referred to, uses a ONE SHOT 0-360 lens. That is why the photo quality is so bad. Look in the reflection of the glass! One thing I do agree stitching sucks and there is nothing I want more than a ONE SHOT lens system that works, problem is they don't.
Also BobbyDouglas, you cannot call up the 0-360 people and tell them to send you examples of virtual tour photos. They are just going to send you good ones. You need to find other Virtual Tour users.
One more thing, I cannot believe you guys are even arguing the issues of Flash Versus Java on a FrontPage users forum. 
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 10:53:47
Nigel
Is there any freeware stitching programs that you can think of that I can substitute my IPIX software with? We are dealing with fiseye photos here. I just need to 2 stitch to photos.
Maybe I can break out my Kaidan tripod head and shoot 3 photos with my 185 degree lense. My problem with 2 photos, is 5 degrees overlap is not exactly enough to stitch the ends. I have visible seams, but want to reduce them.
I need to spend less time processing and so make more profit. I am to busy on my other business
http://www.RealtorLeadsOnline.com & http://www.C3Studios.com
to spend time editing photos in photoshop.
Dan Kinchen
C3Studios.com
IgotDreams.com
ExtremeVirtualTours.com
RealtorLeadsOnline.com
SaltedNuts.com
CommercialCleaningOrlando.com
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 11:29:32
We are not looking for super high resolution tours that will most likely require broadban to view. If this was the case, would you say the 0-360 lens would work good for us?
I gotta run off for a bit, but thanks for the replies and all of the information.
IgotDreams, if you didn't keep the lens for so long, then ask for a return, they most likely would have actually thought about it. It also helps if you are nice with them on the phone.
How long did you have the product for until you spoke with someone regarding a return?
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 4/9/2004 11:31:04 >
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helge
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 13:14:31
For sure it is no spheric panorama animation, cause it was a little bit different to develop the algorithm i need for a spheric animation!!!
I recognize that i`m not smart enough and that my mathematic intelligibility is not so good that i can develop it in a few days.
Sorry for that!
But nevertheless i`m not a fan of these spherical panos, cause it`s unreal and sometimes to strong warped. But okay, if people like it ... .
I`m now ready with my idea of an interactive, multifunctional and good to navigate transparent Flash panorama.
The main pano is 220KB and some special effects are loaded from extern.
The pano grafic was created with an 3D programm, cause i have no real pano picture.
There are some interactive elements on it and you get informations about that objects.
The content is useless, i only wanted to show some possibilities how it can be using Flash.
Maybe some effects are a little bit buggy, it`s only an alpha version and i don`t know if i wanna develop it further.
Explore the pano!
Example for a Flash Panorama Tour
If Nigel says that these things can be also created with QTVR or Applets than i would like to see it.
Happy Easter
Helge
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helge
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 14:59:41
Jepp, I used "Terragen" to create a Landscape.
You can download it here: www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/download.shtml
After using some tutorials i was able to create this panorama.
You`ll find these tutorials at the internet.
Here is one of them:
fps.brainerd.net/terragen.htm
good luck
Helge
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Nigel
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/9/2004 15:39:15
Igotdreams - Panotools is free and will stitch 2 and or 3 fisheye images. I would suggest buying ptgui ($49) which is a superb interface for this software which otherwise is not very friendly. There is a whole forum dedicated to it - yahoogroups-panotools. This does require the setting of control points (about 5 mins per pano) but the results are superb.
Alternatively use easypanos - panoweaver which is preset for 3 fisheye images (I prefer 3 anyway - much better quality and no seams). when you have it set perfectly for your camera/lens combination you can batch stitch with it. It creates spherical panos and also has a tripod cap insertion facility. This will appeal to you if time is an issue.
You right about this drifting away from frontpage but it wouldn't be the first time.
Helge - Your flash tour is an excellent example of what can be done - you're obviously very talented.
You can do most of that with a java applet (I've not seen it done in quicktime) including hotspots and images within the applet and the compass effect as well as zoomable maps and auto scripting. Whats more you can add movies inside the panos. I'll find you an example.
I do have quite a high quality flash viewer I'm working with right now but I can't use it for sphericals but nort all tours need to be spherical so it already has its uses.
Nigel
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/11/2004 15:18:14
Hi i`m new to any forum but I`ll have to speak up for the 0-360 lens. The problem is they have adapters for many cameras - some of which are not suitable.
I use this lens with a sony 717 and the results are really good! You have to sharpen the image up a bit and its best to run it through the new photo optimization on paint shop 8.
I did this on the samples on 0-360.com and I could make them alot better than on their website!
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/11/2004 17:00:23
Thanks for the information. This topic has really attracted a few experts here.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/12/2004 14:31:00
I found a link who shows also the realization of the same idea to simulate an spherical panorama with Flash.
Example for spherical Flash VR
Helge
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/12/2004 14:50:02
Those flash ones are pretty nice. But they do not have the usual features as most Java ones do.
Also, you canno go up/down on them either. Not too bad though. I still think that the Java was better.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/13/2004 10:07:48
Yes of cause the quality of warped Applets or QTVR is better.
But what are the usual "features" of Java Tech.?
Up, down - zoom in and out?
These things are a question of priorities?
I don`t need to look at the sky and the ground, mostly there is nothing interesting to see.
I also don`t like zooming, cause normally the quality suffers. But there is no prob to implement a zooming script into the panorama.
My priorities are different to yours, i`ve recognized it!
I wanna show the peoples an attractive designed photorealistic 360° view with many informations about what you see, an intuitive usage of navigation, many interactive things to discover and a good useability.
The most Applet and QTVR developers wanna show the world a real 360x360° view with all the beautiful dirty ground and the cloudy, smoky and rainy sky. ;o)
Nothing against that!!!
But i prefer a real interactive multimedia VR and i can make cuts in warpeing images.
The 360 DOF panos are not my style, maby useful for some Clients.
I thought they uses also Flash but i found to Flash animation on there site? hmm
okay bye
Helge
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/13/2004 11:10:08
The one I am using for is to display homes. And when you do that you will want to have as close to 3360x360° as you can.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/13/2004 11:51:40
Have you looked at pixaround I know a few realtors that use this & it seems to work well for them.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/13/2004 14:32:36
Helge - try flashloaded.
http://www.flashloaded.com/360panviewer.php
You can customise this to you hearts content and its very cheap.
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Nigel
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/14/2004 4:34:29
I thought this thread had run it's course but obviously not.
Sometimes you do need to see up - mostly indoors but also outside when next to tall buildings otherwise the effect is not the same. In some buidings the ceiling and/or floor can be the main feature. For Landscapes cylindrical panos are fine. I like to have the choice but there is no right or wrong, it's a matter of personal preference.
We usually refer to fully spherical or cubic panoramas as 360 degrees X 180 degrees not 360 x 360 as the vertical field of view cannot exceed 180 but thats merely a technicality most people will know what you mean.
As for that Flash viewer that was freely available with the last Flash release.
Whilst not suitable for general viewing due to the download Shockwave viewers are superb.
Nigel
< Message edited by Nigel -- 4/14/2004 4:35:30 >
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/14/2004 16:42:11
quote:
ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas
We are not looking for super high resolution tours that will most likely require broadban to view. If this was the case, would you say the 0-360 lens would work good for us?
I gotta run off for a bit, but thanks for the replies and all of the information.
IgotDreams, if you didn't keep the lens for so long, then ask for a return, they most likely would have actually thought about it. It also helps if you are nice with them on the phone.
How long did you have the product for until you spoke with someone regarding a return?
The 0-360 photos are not good enough for most projects, which is my point. I need a lens that works everytime, no matter what. If I have to make camera adjustsments, then that is expected. As for the 0-360 lens I can make adjustsments till my camera breaks and they still turn out terrible.
I still have that dam lens, I had it for 2 weeks, and I tried different thing severy day and nothing, then I called them up and said I was done with it. They told me that they do not take returns. He told me to sell it on ebay. I asked him why? Are your lenses known for selling on ebay? I tried being nice as well, it got me the chance for them to take it back and charge me as a rental. Which was like $99.00 a week, so that was no good. So I still have it, anyone want to buy it? $50.00 OFF the sticker price, I will even through in their tripod, LOL.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nigel
Igotdreams - Panotools is free and will stitch 2 and or 3 fisheye images. I would suggest buying ptgui ($49) which is a superb interface for this software which otherwise is not very friendly. There is a whole forum dedicated to it - yahoogroups-panotools. This does require the setting of control points (about 5 mins per pano) but the results are superb.
Thanks I will try it out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnBoy
Hi i`m new to any forum but I`ll have to speak up for the 0-360 lens. The problem is they have adapters for many cameras - some of which are not suitable.
I bought their recomended camera (the more expensive one, G5), adapters, tripod, and the lens. CRAP!
-------------------------------------------
By the way, if any of you know some Realtors that need a website and you recomend them I will give you a $50.00 Amazon.com Gift Certificate if they signup. RealtorLeadsOnline.com , I am doing so well with this, I may just sell my ExtremeVirtualTour.com website.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/15/2004 17:03:25
Calm down dear!
Didn`t realise this was such a heated debate! I suppose it is all about giving up a bit of quality if you are using is for a job. Fact is that I can do a house tour and create a site with the 4 views in under an hour. Most people are not perfectionists - only us!
So they are very happy with the result, we are a little unhappy and we know there is better avaliable but it doesn`t matter if you can undercut the rest!
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/15/2004 17:25:20
I think the market for VR tours is very diverse. Not everyone needs to spend 4 hous tweaking their tour to look the best, load the fast, and overall look unique.
For those who plan to have hundreds of tours a month, something like a 0-360 lens would most likely be the better route to go. Although it will take some time to go used to, and of course many tries with it to get the best quality, the one shot lens would save a lot of time.
I think the biggest comparison is time vs quality. When you stitch images, usually you will notice a better quality in the tour. It is about that time that I start to mess with the camera though, and be able to provide some results instead of what I think- I posted this thread knowing almost nothing about them.
quote:
I bought their recomended camera (the more expensive one, G5), adapters, tripod, and the lens. CRAP!
- What didn't you like about the G5? My client is really impressed with it.
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RE: 360 Degree Tour (Flash Maybe?) - 4/15/2004 18:05:42
I think Mr Igot dreams is doing me a favor! He hates the 0-360 and is writing it off. So I may use it - providing good results - with less competition. Ok we are all over the world, but it is a small comunity who decide that it is the future.
1. Find what you are happy with
2. Use it as much as you can because soon you will be in demand as much as webdesigners were in 95.
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