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d a v e
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/24/2004 8:30:18
i preferred your version, very nice
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Gekko web design
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LoriL1212
Posts: 394
Joined: 1/30/2004
From: South Florida
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/24/2004 9:01:38
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
Tim Berners-Lee ..... And if they tell me to use CSS, I gotta use CSS, and HTML only for the page structure.
I have no desire to argue, but really want some clarification on your firm postition....
Do you have a place on the web to which you can direct me for EXACTLY where a web founder has said to use "CSS to layout webpages and NOT tables" please? I really need to see this before I would even consider a change such as this - as for me, I feel CSS is still not reliable enough since it does not look the same in all browsers....
As well, I went to this page (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/) to see about it myself, and the first sentence on the page states:
Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents.
That to me means exactly what it says, and does not say that it is for "layout", "holding together the structure", or the like - I use CSS for what it states above it is for... text rendering.
I have read what is said at: http://www.webstandards.org/ and see that "they" want designers to do so, but you know what, that page itself, to me, looks like most of the other full css pages I have seen - white and plain...
Even Jeffery Zeldman's new look (http://www.zeldman.com/) is very plain to me - I realize he says that we should change to CSS, but he himself states right there on the front page, that it does not render the same in A and B.
I am sure there are others, maybe even some that are not "the same looking css coded page", but I have yet to find them, and will continue to utilize tables until I can do EXACTLY what I can with them using CSS....
< Message edited by LoriL1212 -- 3/24/2004 9:01:50 >
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gorilla
Posts: 2974
From: Denmark
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/24/2004 9:55:53
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
That just brought more points. What you accomplish by using tables, you achieve the same result with CSS more easily.
I am sorry to be blunt but you very obviously do not know what you are talking about here. Table based layouts are in effect a grid placed within the flow. They are understood and consistently supported and rendered by pretty well every browser. Even those that predate the v4.x browsers.
W3C are encouraging people to drop the use of tables for layout purposes because:
- Syntactically it is incorrect to use them for such a purpose.
- Deeply nested tables can increase render load considerably.
- They can, if not linearised be very difficult for nonvisual Uas to interpret correctly.
Even a relatively simple css layout (in effect) works by taking things in and out of the flow. It is similar in a way to sliding boxes around on a flat surface until you get the effect you desire. To get even a simple layout to work consistently you need to understand inter alia:
- The rendering algo specs as defined by W3C
- Flow.
- The box model.
- The various interpretations of box model including the errors therein used by the browser groups. By browser groups I mean of course the various versions of the browsers across the platforms used. It is ludicrous to talk of Internet Explorer, Mozilla/Netscape, Opera and so on as monolithic products. They are not, they are spread across various platforms and;
- The bugs, inconsistencies, or simple plain differences in interpretation of the basic algorithms – which are admirably clearly defined – not only between the various browser products to say nothing of the other UAs.
- How to get around those – let me give you an easy one. Please tell me how you get around the incorrect interpretations of 100% in the two main browser families. Also please tell me why the opera browser requires (correctly) that fix to be applied to the two basic parent selectors.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
It was decades ago when HTML tables where invented, and they were meant to display tabular data.
Wrong. Tables were specified in the spec for HTML 3.0.. Or to put it another way in 1995. Could you please tell me how nine years ago comes under the heading of decades? Yes the original purpose was the display of tablular data. I have already covered this.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
There was no such thing as "layout".
Wrong. The flow algorithm which underlies all rendering deals precisely with layout. All other rendering algos are variants of this.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
HTML wasn't even meant to be used in such a world changing communication method as the World Wide Web.
Wrong. In fact I'm very tempted to use a Danish word here. Let me wrestle with my conscience a moment <wrestle> </wrestle>
Gorilla 10 Conscience 0 - ………. I win! ……
"Vrøvl." *
HTML was and remains a subset of SGML designed as a markup language to enable the interchange and transfer of information. It was first used on DARPANET, JANET, and what became the Internet by inter-alia:
- Scientists.
- Military personnel.
- Law enforcement personnel.
- People like me who fall into two or more of the categories listed above (and who continue to use it for that purpose.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
So what now? What happens to web development?
It is likely that the need for interoperability will continue to drive browser manufacturers and their clients to adhere ever closer to the W3C specs. This process is unlikely to be helped by ill-informed commentary or criticism.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
Are we all doomed?
Whats this "we" business paleface? 
Please define "we," "all" and "doomed" Some "contextually selective"  information about "doomed." Would be helpful but is not essential. I shall sacrifice many bananas to the goddess in the meantime just in case I am doomed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
That's why the WWW inventor Tim Berners-Lee (http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee) and couple of others founded World Wide Web Consortium.
Ummm … no actually, the reason for this is very clearly set out on the w3c site.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BamseIsUnix
It was based on the idea to Lead the Web to it's Full Potential... by giving out specifications and recommendations on web techniques. And if they tell me to use CSS, I gotta use CSS, and HTML only for the page structure.
I have italicised the key word. Nobody is obliged to follow these standards. They are open standards published as recommendations. While we're at it where exactly in the specs does it say that tables may not be used for layout? A url will suffice. In the meantime here is a url that many may find interesting:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/intro/intro.html
Finally as you seem so convinced that tables are evil and css so easy here is a challenge:
Duplicate the table below using css as your layout tool, you may not use any hacks it must work fully in version 6bis+ of all the main browsers:
<table border=4 cellpadding=2 cellspacing=8 align=center>
<tr>
<td align=right><I><B><font size=+1 color=#8811DD>Once</font></B></I></td>
<td valign=top><font color=#CC1100>You</font><p> </td>
<td valign=bottom><font color=#662244>get</font></td><td colspan=2><font size=+2 color=#2211DD><tt>hooked</tt></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td></td><td colspan=4 align=right><font size=+2>on tables</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font size=+4 color=#CC1100><tt>you</tt></font></td>
<td rowspan=2 colspan=2 valign=top><font color=#1004411>may<p> N e ed</font></td><td align=right><font size=+1 color=#331166>to
go and get</font></td>
</tr>
<tr><td></td><td><font size=-1 color=#335522>css therapy</font></td>
</tr>
</table>
Then please cite for me the page weight of the two sets of code.
I am sorry if all of this seems somewhat harsh. However those of us who have been pushing for standards compliance for years don't really enjoy having our work made even more difficult by ill-informed, non-factual, proseltysing. As the Americans would say:
"Just the facts ma'am." Amazing though it may seem some of care about facts and get quite annoyed when we see opinion cited as though it were factual. This goes against the purpose of places such as these which is to educate and help by giving informed criticism and advice.
* Note to American, British, New Zealanders, Australians, and other non-speakers of Scandinavian langauges. Vrøvl is not a "naughty" word. It makes no reference whatsoever to bodyparts or bodily functions. Just in case somebody thought it did.
< Message edited by gorilla -- 3/24/2004 10:17:23 >
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Mháircaish
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Peppergal
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/24/2004 10:37:49
quote:
What you accomplish by using tables, you achieve the same result with CSS more easily. Forgive me in advance, for some reason my "enter" key isn't working and I can't make paragraphs. Onward. I beg to differ.....only because there are some sites that the most reasonable and simplest method of layout IS tables - especially when you want your site to look as decent as possible for NN4.7 users - NN4.7 doesn't support floating very well. An example is my small collection of real estate websites. the only sensible way to lay these out is with tables. I am now creating them with a mixture of tables and CSS but for now the tables are a permanent component of the sites. I have three other sites that I created with all CSS and very little, if any, tables and it's lovely. But going "no tables" isn't always the better solution for all sites.
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Peppergal
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/24/2004 10:46:39
THANK YOU, Gorilla. Had I read your post first, I never would have bothered posting my little paragraph of drivel. Again...THANK YOU....not just in this thread, but wherevever you post, it's always excellent stuff.
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Giomanach
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 3:41:47
This is soooo typical of one of my threads lol, it always kicks up some form of lesson to be learnt by all
Thanks for all the comments and the like. Now I'm going to have to read through it all again, and make changes, unless Lori has beaten me to it that is??
Dan
<edit>
Just to throw my bit in about all this CSS malarky, and my spellings:
M - My extremely bad spelling for being on this side of the duck pond is due to the fact that I am a hard coder and the form of english it is written in is US English, for those of you that didn't know. Which explains why I type color instead of colour and so on. Plus I only left school just short of two years ago, and the exams are getting easier, otherwise I wouldn't have passed English Language. And the "Much Better" is all I need to hear on compliments from you
CSS -
CSS can be used for layout, but AFAIK, it's main purpose is to format the HTML document as the previous tags, e.g <font> and all the attributes are now deprecated by the HTML standards. But you have to remember CSS is practically irrelevant (sp?) to the layout of the page. Tables can be used to get the layout of the page, you just use whatever is easiest to achieve the page structure and layout that YOU or the CLIENT wants. Yes using DIV layers cuts down on the bandwidth used, but there are just some things that cannot be done with DIV layers that tables are perfect for, an example: The site Lori is doing for me, I took a copy of the coding Tuesday night before I left work, copied the pictures to a floppy, and took them home. I tried to re-create the page using DIV layers - I'm still trying, Using tables is much easier and faster for that design, with DIV layers, you have to get the positions absolute/relative/fixed, and they don't always play the way you want them to.
It's all just a matter of choosing whats right for you, and the design of the web-page. And if you must know how I got the layout and design for my latest attempt at writing a site, I created it as a graphic first, just like Lori does, and then cut and coded it. Yes I used Div layers and CSS, but I could have done exactly the same with tables, and achieved exactly the same layout and structure.
OK I've waffled enough, time to get some work done
</edit>
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 3/25/2004 13:04:45 >
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caz
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From: Somewhere south of Chester, UK
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 7:47:29
quote:
M - My extremely bad spelling for being on this side of the duck pond is due to the fact that I am a hard coder and the form of english it is written in is US English, for those of you that didn't know. Which explains why I type color instead of colour and so on. Plus I only left school just short of two years ago, and the exams are getting easier, otherwise I wouldn't have passed English Language. And the "Much Better" is all I need to hear on compliments from you
Now that Lori has helped you with design, you really do need to look at your content and hit the spellchecker, because there is a typo on almost every page. Gorilla mentioned your "speeeeling" and most of the glitches are typos, probably from trying to type too fast. Examples:
please do not hesistate to contact me.
Unfortunatley I don't currently support Window 2003,
so a few of the featurs might be missing,
required to haev JavaScript
It's OK in a forum, but not on a professional web site. Having crafted a site it's almost impossible to proof read it yourself, you are too close to it. Get a friend to check it out for you - for the content, not the design. That's why there are professional proofreaders in business. The worst proofers are authors
This has nothing to do with USEnglish v English, on this side of the pond we are multilingual - we have to be to get on with MS.
And before you say it, this has nothing to do with nit-picking, but laying down good foundations for future employment and site development.
Cheers
Carol
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Giomanach
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 7:56:40
quote:
hit the spellchecker
Just as soon as one is put into Notepad
<edit>
I've been through the whole thread, and made all changes but the one Karen has requested, so far. Hopefully the typos have disppeared and a few of the other things. Carol, you are right, I type way too fast, should learn to slow down really.
M - What browser/Os were you using to view the site? From my end it looks fine in all browsers, just curious.
quote:
Get a friend to check it out for you
Or type it out In MS Word first then copy over and add tags appropriatley
quote:
And before you say it, this has nothing to do with nit-picking, but laying down good foundations for future employment and site development.
Wasn't gonna say a word, I wouldn't have posted it here if I was expecting someone to rip to pieces. C'mon Carol, I need help just as much as the rest of us in the area of web design, which is why I put my sites up for critque, for people to point out the mistakes and flaws in the site. Still haven't figured out the JavaScript Dropdown problem yet, anyone got anyideas on that one???
Future Employment - looking very grim for this 17 year old, can't get a job anywhere, not even a shelf stacker in the local supermarket, all jobs are taken, and the jobs I can do, I get turned away from because I'm underbl***yqualified, no fair
Anyone else wanna have a bash now?
Dan
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 3/25/2004 13:14:21 >
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JointComms
Posts: 200
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From: Windsor, CANADA
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 8:15:00
I would hate to run into the Supreme Overlord in an alley-way.
quote:
get turned away from because I'm underbl***yqualified, no fair
Dan, I feel for you as we go thru the same thing cause some of us are overf***inqualified.
< Message edited by JointComms -- 3/25/2004 8:20:10 >
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caz
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From: Somewhere south of Chester, UK
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 9:03:34
quote:
ORIGINAL: Giomanach
I need help just as much as the rest of us in the area of web design, which is why I put my sites up for critque, for people to point out the mistakes and flaws in the site.
Which is why we have all replied with, I hope, helpful replies.
quote:
Anyone else wanna have a bash now?
Not bashing at all, we all have to start somewhere and it is best for the future if you don't pick up bad habits now. Even if that does mean that you have to slow down a little now.
It's the old tortoise and hare thing, not how fast you get there, but what is there at the end of the journey and it's worth. As you say, you're only 17 - time is on your side and you don't need to blagg your way into jobs, employers are ( or should be ) always impressed by enthusiasm, realism regarding ability and, above all a willingness to learn. No one can realistically expect 'experience' in the CV of a 17 year old but interest and the ability to a) accept constructive criticism and b) to learn from it is always valued.
As far as qualifications are concerned, I am with JointComms! There appears to be no comfortable mean in these things and sometimes it is used by prospective employers to mask age discrimination; you just have to roll with the punches.
You also have to be careful not to irritate Gorillas...especially when they are Supreme Overlords, who are born teachers.
Good luck with the website and the job hunting,
Cheers
Carol
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Cheshire cat. www.doracat.co.uk
I remember when it took less than 4hrs to fly across the Atlantic.
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Peppergal
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 9:12:16
quote:
Or type it out In MS Word first then copy over and add tags appropriatley
Or take your HTML from Notepad, paste it into Front Page HTML view, then switch to Normal View. The errors will all show up underlined.
(or do the equivalent to this in dreamweaver)
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Giomanach
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 9:19:44
After all, Nobody's perfect
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gorilla
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 9:20:38
I don't see why JC - Unless you mean that I get p****d off when somebody repeatedly posts wildly inaccurate "information" and on the basis of that tries to browbeat people who actually are trying to learn how to do it right.
Dan,
Sorry won't wash. If you want to give a good professional impression then you need to pay attention to detail. Spelling is a very important detail.
I'm a rotten typist, I've reached the point where I've set up a huge set of macros that correct as I type such hideously embarassing typos as "copmuter" for "computer" and so on. Most "hard coding" tools don't include a spell check. Why on earth would they? What I am saying is create your primary text using a tool intended for it and use the proofing and editing tools available to you. The design and coding of a site is a tiny fraction of what is involved in getting it right and getting it noticed. use the right tool for the right job.
I've posted this screenshot below already today. Would I use these people? Hell no, why not? They can't be bothered to take the time to check their spelling thats why not. If they're like that why on earth should i waste my money on them? I'll go to somebody with a professional attitude. In computing that means attention, rigorous attention, to detail.
Believe me I sympathise with your dilemma, all of us have gone through the sheer bloody hell of trying to find work. You have talent so you've got an edge that many don't. You will ultimately get there. But it involves very hard slog, especially when you're feeling down about rejection letter number 567823456. Fair doesn't come into it, wish it did, it doesn't. Slog, slog, slog, slog, I'm years away from making a go at something I'm inviolved in right now. Years.
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Mháircaish
Signature self-censored to protect the sensibilities of the thin-skinned .
May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion. – Dwight D. Eisenhower
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LoriL1212
Posts: 394
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From: South Florida
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 9:32:55
I will be doing the proofreading for any content he adds.
Any typos you find on the current design are MY typos, and not Dan's.
This is only a draft, and I spellcheck, add META's and ALT tags prior to publish
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Giomanach
Posts: 6075
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From: England
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/25/2004 9:37:42
quote:
And for the record. i've given Dan, in private, some bloody ferocious "tellings off," he has had both the maturity and the grace, to write to me after I've done so telling me how p****d he was to get them, the wisdom to know why I did it and what the lesson was. It is a very nasty world we live in, he needs an edge, one edge is not getting into the sort of sloppy habits that so many "professionals" have. Dan if you want in on what will be a massive market - read up on accessibility. Get knowledgeable on s5o8, wcag, and so on. Most current professionals haven't a clue.
I'm sure you know now, I'd rather you had me hung drawn and quartered over mistakes, than just leaving it out. Main reason being, it's all part of the leraing curves. And to quote Limp Bizkit - Take A Look Around:
Life's just a lesson, you learn it when your through
So, if I am out of line or have something totally wrong, just smack me round the head with it, preferably in private, b'cos sometimes, a good telling off is the only way I learn things, well, at my age it's expected
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BamseIsUnix
Posts: 108
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/26/2004 4:11:19
Gorilla,
What a post...
quote:
Wrong. Tables were specified in the spec for HTML 3.0.. Or to put it another way in 1995. Could you please tell me how nine years ago comes under the heading of decades?
Really? Ouch. Then I was completely wrong about that.
---
Actually, the fuzz about tables for layout doesn't fit here in the site critiques. I've avoided tables mainly because of blind people having difficulties to view the page with their whatever nonvisual browsers they're using, and I find "tabled" pages very hard to maintain, because "HTML for content and structure and CSS for layout, colors and styles" is much more descriptive and of course it's much easier to change the styles only by modifying the seperate CSS file.
I don't know why, but I find CSS layout easier than tables. Maybe it's because I'm such an amateur : I haven't encountered problems like the box model bug, which requires some more hacks. I have a job for summer where I'm going to produce a CSS-based website for special project here at school. The information on that site is critical, and we can afford ignoring any of our viewers. It's a real challenge (my first one ) and I'm going to use CSS, high contrast, easy navigation and all that.
And hey, I said that Giomanach only earned some more points, from me. I'm sorry if people here don't like opinions here, but that's what I actually meant.
quote:
LoriL1212
Do you have a place on the web to which you can direct me for EXACTLY where a web founder has said to use "CSS to layout webpages and NOT tables" please?
Did I say that? I only said "them". And by "them" I mean people who are smarter than me, who are more experienced in web development and can tell me what to do. I'm mostly following specific guidelines how to write "good" websites.
---
I'm sure a new hate post from gorilla will follow. Nevermind.
To quote a famous TV show:
I've learned something today.
Bloody site critiques is not for me.
Regards,
Bamse
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d a v e
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RE: Last Revamp - 3/26/2004 5:19:27
cringe!
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Printable Version 
, and I'm wating on replies from spec letters and the like, but no avail. 
, what I mean is, I have no net connection @ home, and the compnay I work for has all Web BAsed email blocked
, and I'm not at any form of college AFAIK till September, so not web based email till then 
