Why not Frontpage (Full Version)

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28wazoo28 -> Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 10:16:24)

I am new to this. I have built one other web page and now a guy I know wants me to build a webpage for his business. I am totally freaked out. Here is my question though: after talking to some of my friends in IT they tell me that I should not build it in Front page. They say it is too easy to hack and it is not secure enough to be taking credit card orders on. Is this true? If so, then why do so many people use it? What should I do? I know how to use FrontPage (a little) but I have never done this for a fee. Also, what should I charge for building a page and maintaining it. He wants a web presence first and then possibly move into an online store. Thanks in advance!



LoriL1212 -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 13:02:55)

As a professional developer, I do not use FP for two main reasons.

1. The code it creates.
2. The mandatory extentions for its use.

.. there are more, but I will stop there.

There are several pros (including some on this site) that use it and have no problems securing jobs, and creating beautiful web presences with it... So if it is what you know, then use it - but in the meantime, learn HTML. It is a must know for any serious developer.

As for cost, it is hard if you have no previous successful sites to go very high. As a beginner, maybe $25.00 per hour.

Here is a thread here on what to charge:
http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/m-153286/tm.htm

Here is another link outside of here:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=173786

**edited to finsh my sentence. LOL, I pushed post way to fast!



Mike54 -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 15:35:09)

quote:

They say it is too easy to hack and it is not secure enough to be taking credit card orders on.

FP is just a wysiwyg tool to create web pages. If there is anything to be "hacked" it would be the server. The same would be true of the credit card issue (taking it to the point of the software/security set up for processing.

To Lori's points, (1) while FP doesn't necessarily create the cleanest code in the world if you pay attention you can get the pages to validated per W3C. (2) As for the extensions, it is NOT necessary to use anything in FP that requires their installation on the server.
(3)
quote:

but in the meantime, learn HTML. It is a must know for any serious developer.
Excellent advice (see #1[;)]). It's a good idea for anyone who wants to create web pages, professional or not, to have some understanding of HTML.



Peppergal -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 17:00:58)

quote:

As a beginner, maybe $25.00 per hour.


I've been struggling with this myself. I have some jobs that are almost mindles "fill in the blank" oriented which require very little creativity and know-how and I wondered what to charge for doing them. It involves setting up a public website for realtors in the MLS program that is very limited - you can't design your own page from scratch but use one of their very limited templates, with very little HTML control. Setting up the entire thing takes me about three hours. Just a matter of doing searches, saving them and then linking them. I was thinking $18/hour. Do you think I'm not charging enough? I seem to be attracting a lot of the local realtors around here and I'm anticipating a few more agents in the near future....so I don't want to sell myself short or scare them off into doing it themselves, either. LOL



Mojo -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 17:23:24)

Spot on Mike54....

FrontPage has ZERO impact on security. It is the server where weaknesses reside (webdav comes to mind).

If you don't use the extensions and check the box to keep FP from playing with your code - it can produce clean code. The problem is too many people don't know much about FP, except what they have "heard". They hear bloat and amateur code and that is what they believe without checking for themselves...

FP does some things better than other WYSIWYG's and does some things worse - I personally use something else for 98% of my HTML work because FP does not give me the nice code colors for tags and such.



jaybee -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 18:21:14)

Frontpage is fine for your first couple of sites. You will find that you start to tweak it anyway and that requires getting to grips with HTML. You'll find you learn it as you go.

Stay away from the FP themes if you can. FP2003 is much better than earlier versions at creating reasonably clean code as long as you don't start using the bells and whistles.

Security is down to your host and if you're going to put shopping facilities on, make sure that host has an SSL certificate and ask them what level of security they guarantee it for. If they have a "Chained certificate" they usually tell you not to take credit card transactions using it. PayPal is probably the route to go for a small site selling a few bits and it's easy to plug in for a novice.

Charging, Lori is quite right. Your first few sites should be done at a discount to get the basic portfolio you'll need for references later on. $25 or £25 is about right for starting out. My first couple of sites went out at £250 - £300.

The best advice I can give you is believe in yourself. You've done one site, you can do others. Stay plugged in to this forum. There are some wonderful professionals on here who are always ready to give good advice based on their experience. Look through the Site Critiques section and you'll start to get a feel for what to do, and what not to do.

And best of luck. [:)]



LoriL1212 -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 20:02:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peppergal

I was thinking $18/hour. Do you think I'm not charging enough?


If this was me, and I know that it only takes 3 hours (give or take) I would absolutely charge a flat rate. Never by the hour.

I would charge $100.00 flat.



Peppergal -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/25/2004 22:30:08)

Wow...okay! And I thought I might have been pushing it "too far."

Thanks!



Giomanach -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/26/2004 6:39:04)

I must echo Lori on the why not to use FP. Plus last time I used FP, it didn't automatically have DTD and character encoding done for you, which is the main reason why I purchased Dreamweaver.

I also find FP the harder WYISWYG editor to use, as all of the functions are in the menus, and for someone like me, I will scan straight over them, DW has quite a few functions in the panel groups on the right hand side of the program.

Also when using FP, you have to look for specialised hosting, you are restricted to Windows Servers, and they must have FPSEs installed for the web site to work properly. Also, I started out the hard way, I started my first we page through notepad, then when I got confident I had a look at FP and DW, then decided which one would be best for me to use.

Plus I work for Lori now, so I have no choice but to use Notepad or DW

Edit: Typos R Us



Peppergal -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/26/2004 7:35:05)

quote:

Also when using FP, you have to look for specialised hosting, you are restricted to Windows Servers,


Nope - I'm on a linux server. You only *need* the Front Page server exts. (which a plethora of hosts offer anyway) if you want to use the Publish feature instead of FTP, the built in feedback forms, and some of the other bells and whistles which I do not use. I only use the ext. for shared borders, forms, and publishing. Oh yeah, it's nice because you can edit your page live from Internet Explorer, too - handy but not necessary. I've been editing all my sites live lately.

All that said, I'm not married to Front Page, and my love/hate relationship has been going on a long time. I've gotten away from the page bloat by using CSS totally for text control, and using "find and replace" to eliminate the "border=0", "bordercolor" and "style=border-collapse: collapse" tags instantly from all pages in a matter of seconds.

For someone who can't afford a new editor worth a darn, it's a fine trade off. I'm waiting for the newest edition of First Page to come out, and then, I might give that a whirl.

I do get character encoding coming up automatically, too - just not the DTD which is really retarded. But I think that is an option with FP 2003, right?



Peppergal -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/26/2004 7:38:19)

Dan, instead of Notepad, you might like this handy and very cool text editor - it is really neat, and the basic one is free:

http://www.notetab.com/



Mike54 -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/26/2004 7:40:27)

quote:

Also when using FP, you have to look for specialised hosting,

This is NOT true.
quote:

you are restricted to Windows Servers,

This also is NOT true.
quote:

and they must have FPSEs installed for the web site to work properly.

This is also NOT true!

It is the developers CHOICE as to what host and server they might want/need to use based on which features of the FP wysiwyg web editing program they want to use. IF someone wishes to use any or all of the flashy components that are packaged with FP then yes you are restricted but FP by itself does not force this on anyone.
FTR two of my sites are hosted on Linux running Apache AND the FPSE's. It is however MY choice as to whether I activate the FPSE's - I do not HAVE to.



Reflect -> RE: Why not Frontpage (3/26/2004 7:49:40)

Hi,

I think the tools can be varied. I use FP, Dreamweaver, Ultra edit and a lot of the time notepad. I think it comes down to the right tool for the right situation. Just get a feel with the tool and what it can do and what it can mess up. I know when I get in a rush sometimes I will miss a tag closing when using notepad and have to validate to find it [X(].

I stay away from a lot of the FP "bots/components". In place of using bots/components I normally go out and locate a script to do what I want because I need more freedom on stylizing the functions.

FP can be used on a non Windows server by all means. There is not an issue there (sorry to contradict here). To take it a step further if you only use certain bots and FTP instead of publishing you do not need FPSEs.

As for security a few people have already pointed that out. Nothing is bullet proof though. A lot will depend on the host for these issues. I would be more worried if someone could execute cmd.exe on a windows server. Most hosts catch this but some don't. Again though I do not use most bots/components in FP.

When I first started, I was in an IT department, I did the same thing. Everyone recommended Hot Metal Pro at the time. So I went out and bought it. While it is a nice tool it was inappropriate for a newbie as it had a steep learning curve. I almost gave up but things started clicking. My next site I purchased Dreamweaver and designed a site using layers. Much to my horror, at the time think NN 4.x, I found a lot of things just did not appear in NN. You learn as you go and adjust your thinking to compensate for your tools.

Brian



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