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Giomanach
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WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 7:25:07
Back at the dawn of the internet, a cutting edge web developer needed a head full of HTML and notepad to create a professional website, today, they are classed as amateurs. Over the years, web pages became more graphical and complex, programs like Homesite and BBedit were released to speed up the process.
Soon enough, software developers realized that there were a lot of other people who wanted to publish on this Interweb thingy, but they didn't fancy taking the time out to learn HTML etc. And so some bright spark made the WYSIWYG editor. Pretty colours and arcane fonts could be added, with effects a couple of clicks away, and when you'd finished, click a button, and hey presto!! the HTML doc is done for you.
The revolution?? Actually no, some of the programs lived up to their promises, but they also churned out excess coding, and they didn't have a hope of being cross-browser friendly.
Times have changed, and so has the WYSIWYG editor. No more of the excess coding (expect FP), the difficult part has been taken away from us, or has it??? (thats another story for another time kiddies). So, juts how good are WYSIWYG editors? Let's find out shall we.....
Note: Everything here is based on my opinions, and wait till I've finished posting till you decide to argue with me
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:30:37 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 7:32:58
The Pros And Cons
All WYISWYG editors have there good sides and bad sides, this is in general:
Pros
Easy To Use - The GUI allows newbie users to create decent web pages without any knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes
Good for the "Designer" types - Great for those of us who worry about looks not whats on the inside
Less chance of making mistakes - You don't type the coding, so how can you?
Template-tastic - most WYSIWYG editors these days come with templates installed, so who needs to start from fresh??
Cons
Cray-zeeeeeee Coding - WYSIWYG editors can produce excess coding, FrontPage being the perfect example.
Less Chance of A Job - Most, if not all Web Developing companies will expect you to know HTML/CSS maybe JavaScript/ASP/PHP, and one WYSIWYG, no knowledge of the coding, can seriously decrease the chances of getting a job
Proprietary - Once you've gotten used to one, it's hard to switch
Can't fix things - Sometimes the editors will make a right mess of the coding, and you have to go in with a shovel and skip to clear up the mess it's left behind, the site can be reduce to a bubblying wreck by the time you've finished.
One of the crowd - The templates are the easy way out, and it also means you will look like many of the other sites on the web, don't want that now do we.
Now on to the top WYISWYG editors, with reviews and Pros and Cons....
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:31:23 >
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Giomanach
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 7:43:41
WYISWYG Editors
Adobe Go-Live
Photoshop is the choice of most Web Developers to create mock ups of websites, and for the outputting of many web graphics. Now re-branded as part of the wallet-dieting price range of Adobe products is Adobe Go-Live, yet it still stands in the shadow of the almighty Dreamweaver. We'll come to Dreamweaver later.
Setting up pages with Go-Live is easy, just drag and drop the images and content where you want it on the page, and Go-Live does the rest for you. It offers the options of using the deprecated HTML tags for formatting font, or using the integrated CSS editor.
Go-Live is predominantly a GUI based editor, there is a Source view function which allows you to edit the coding, rather than the GUI.
It scores high with the ability to integrate with other Adobe Products (mainly Photoshop/Illustrator/Image Ready).
For web developers it is great for those that are more graphic site based.
Platforms
Windows
Mac
Features
WYSIWYG Editor
Can Edit HTML code
CSS Editor
Split Screen editing
Lockable Regions
Built-in FTP
Code Checker
Site Management Tools
Price
£335/$596
Pros
Excellent feature set
Powerful tools
Adobe Family Integration
Cons
fiddly and Lacklustre CSS Editor
over-complex interface
Expensive
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:32:12 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 7:53:23
FrontPage 2003
The mention of FP means excess coding, and a clunky interface. Not anymore, MS have vastly improved it for FP2003.
Like the rivals, it now supports the split screen editing. Pages can be laid out using the Layout Table feature. The code editor has been "beefed" up with the added "auto complete tags".
Traditionally MS bolted on the need for the FPSE, purely for extra functionality, but FP2003 tends to leans to he the mainstream Web standards by using more JavaScript to perform certain functions.
Try to adopt Dreamweaver styles, FP now has a behaviors group panel, offering scripts for rollovers, drop down menus, browser detection, Flash movies etc.
FrontPage is now more XML dependant, this allows it to create data driven sites from flat file XML documents, relational databases, OLE services etc.
Many of the advanced features (web logs etc) require Microsoft Sharepoint services to be installed on the intended server. But for those not requiring the power of Dreamweaver, FP2003 is fine.
Platforms
Windows
Features
WYSIWYG Editor
Can Edit HTML code
CSS editor
Split screen editing
Lockable regions
Built-in FTP
Site management tools
Price
£153/$272
Pros
Super-slick interface
Vastly Improved HTML support
Cons
Far more complex to use than earlier versions
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:32:45 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 8:01:31
NetObject Fusion 7.5
targeted at small business users, NetObject Fusion offers a fast easy way to build a website.
It works differently to the rest of the WYSIWYG editors, as it uses it's own code until you hit publish, which is when it alters it all the HTML and CSS.
You can view the end product and the end HTML through the preview mode, however, you can't edit the coding whilst the page is being built by yourselves, however, you can add HTML coding that it will not touch.
Extreme newbies can have a site up and running in no time thanks to the "New Site Wizard"
The Photo Gallery tool makes a cinch out of creating Professional Photo Galleries
Extra add-ons for the program are a must pay for, and it doesn't support server side language straight away, you have to pay for the add-ons first.
Platforms
Windows
Features
WYSIWYG Editor
CSS editor
Built in FTP
Site management tools
Price
£102/$181
Upgrades approx £40/$71
Pros
Simple to use
Attractive Templates
PayPal and e-commerce integration
Cons
Structured approach will send hard coders and creatives fleeing
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:33:23 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 8:13:16
Dreamweaver
AFAIK, it's top of the market for web developers. It supersedes HTML and offers support for the data driven technologies (JSP/ASP/PHP/.NET/Coldfusion). The new version (MX 2004) embraces CSS, and uses it as the default formatting language. The new CSS inspector allows you to create and edit stylesheets with ease.
It's stick to coding that is as close to the standards as it can get, the built in Target Browser check and Validation features, allow you to validate the coding before you upload/FTP the site.
The integration of Flash is superb, it allows you to insert the pre-installed buttons and import from macromedia's Flash with ease.
Dreamweaver is the dream program for hardcore hard coders. It validates the coding as you go, the coding view is colour coded, and it has auto complete on the tags.
It's interface is way ahead of the rest on the market, and it's easy to see why it's leading the market, shame about the price.
Platforms
Windows
Mac
Features
WYSIWYG
Can Edit HTML code
CSS editor
Split screen editing
Lockable regions
Built-in FTP
Code Checker
Site management tools
Price
£339/$603
Pros
CSS support
Secure FTP
MS Suite Integration
HomeSite editor included
Cons
Interface becoming more complex
Wallet-draining price
Upgrade not really worth it
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:34:09 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 8:23:54
Other options
There's hundreds of HTML coding programs out there, some free, some expensive, some not really worth it. But here's a few:
After a cheery interface, BIG buttons? - coffee Cup Visual Design Trial version available @ http://www.coffeecup.com
Like dealing with the inevitable rough edges? - go here or here or here
The real techies looking for XHTML editors, that are clean, fresh, and produce valid XHTML 1.1 need to have a look here. Thats for real techies only, so be careful
Mixing WYSIWYG with hard coding
Web developers, like myself, like to mix and match with the WYSIWYG editors and hard coding. It allows us to remove the excess coding produced by the programs, and somethings are just easier in the WYSIWYG than Notepad or Notetab. Mac users will want to look at http://www.barebones.com, a firm strongly favored by the hard coders, who have heard of them.
For Unix users, you will need have a look here
For those with wallets, you have take a look at the following three:
http://www.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia
http://www.evrsoft.com
http://www.tacosw.com
Give them some style
Use CSS editors to add style to your pages, the best ones out there are at:
http://www.bradsoft.com - PC only
http://www.westvic.com/style_master - PC & Mac
http://www.macrabbit.com/cssedit/index.html - Mac Only
http://www.style-sheets.com/ - PC only
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:35:07 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 8:25:40
Check It!!!
Most importantly, check the pages you create are valid, and only use one validator on the web, not the one your mate says is fantastic, go the the guys who wrote the standards:
http://www.w3.org
Right, that's enough waffle, the choice is yours, any arguments or bits to add, feel free
Dan
< Message edited by Giomanach -- 4/6/2004 13:35:32 >
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 8:43:14
quote:
Are you bored?
How'd ya guess? lol, jobs boring my brains to bits, and i'm not going any further with the PHP till i've got the current problem sorted (see Advanced Web Development)
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 9:15:59
i think anyone who codes in *just* notepad is either/and
a) masochistic
b) a lot quicker at typing than i am and can visual the way hardcore code will be rendered just using their head
c) still stuck in the 90's
d) too skint to buy a WYSWIG programme to supplement it
e) an old school nerd
I think it's too simple to just pit notepad (et al) vs dreamweaver (et al) why the hell am i going to code a load of tables/divs/whatever in a text editor when i can do it a lot quicker in DW then give a quick tidy in code view/text editor if required after validating.
btw i learnt to code in notepad and preview in netscape 3. good fun
i think the issue can be confused with people pitting the "i use notepad because i'm a hardcore coder" aginst the "you use a wysiwig because you don't know HTML" (frontpage users you know who you are ;) the question is whether to use a text editor or WYSWIG. knowing HTML, css, etc is a pre-requisite for making valid, cross browser pages. full stop.
of course code robots (aka developers) can turn out as good if not possbily better pages than we wysiwig humans, but can they do it faster? or rather it's what tool suits the job and the person. if you're happy handcoding and saving your hard earned cash, then off you go.
I'm more of a fluff monkey than a code monkey, and i find it soooo much easier to get the visual aspect of my design right using something like DW than using notepad/text editor (funny how it's always notepad that gets mentioned, when no-one should put up with that considering the alternative text editors around). that's not to say that my sites aren't structurally sound/valid (hopefully) but that when it comes to adding the pretty layer on top i like something that doesn't get in the way and code does just that (unless you're some weird geek-wizard-artist-machine type entity)
i guess that what i'm saying - btw well done for reading this far - is use what you feel is right and make sure you know how to dig into the code if/when required.
let the coders live on their text editor communes and let the WYSIWIG'ers have fun playing with their palettes and propery inspectors.
learn how to build valid pages in whatever way and learn HTML/css/blank first!
btw i feel that FP (previous versions ) is a bit of a culprit in shielding users from the code a little too much (even as far as the reister is uses - a bookmark isn't a bookmark it's an anchor and a target) which is good on one hand because it is nice and fluffy for newbies but then they always hit a shed load of problems and get scared when you mention the 'H' word (HTML) or the 'C' word (css)
actually Dan you didn't mention mozilla/netscape editors? and they're free! though when i was last using mozilla as a test it wasn't amazingly user friendly
well that's my tuppence and i'm sure not everyone will agree, but then i'd be disappointed if you all did!
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Giomanach
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 9:21:54
quote:
actually Dan you didn't mention mozilla/netscape editors? and they're free! though when i was last using mozilla as a test it wasn't amazingly user friendly
The exact reason why I left them out, I'll wait till they have the user-friendly feature installed, before I decide to use them
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 16:41:04
I would like to know why you believe FP2003 is a little harder for beginners, than 2002?
Seems to me like the interface is just about the same except for the added code tag. And now, it has prebuilt templates that can be clicked and have the basic layout made. Such as a template with a header, footer, and content area.
If anything, I think it iseasier to use.
One con I think you should address is how FP 2003 hates PHP. It treats PHP as a text file. And WILLL NOT ever modify it when you update something. Lets say you update a link, it will not update the link in .PHP extensions. This is the biggest set back for FP.
I was actually hoping this would be corrected in 2003. But apparently it hasn't
Also, another Con is the added tags that show the header, footer, navigation, ect tables. Something you cannot turn off..
And for the Pro side. FPSE!!!! No other WYSIWYG editor can make forms like FP. The FP search function might be limited, however, it does work. And it works great!
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 17:28:36
I have used FP2000, FP2002 and FP2003, out of all of them, I found FP2003 hardest to navigate through. Plus it's leaning towards the Dreamweaver look with the panel groups. I use Dreamweaver, and for anyone to transfer themselves over from one WYSIWYG editor to another, means they have to learn a new way of web developing, and for me FP2003 is the harder one to learn straight off, you have probably been using FP for a few years, and know how it works inside out, therefore you will find it easier than those coming straight into the web design world.
I will look into the FP2003/PHP thingy, see if I can get any info on it.
The added tags - A trait of FP, it's been doing it all along, just in different ways
FPSE - Mandatory to use all the features and gadgets within FP. Some people will have been told not the use them (not by me), and will therefore look at other options. I agree with the FP forms, won't find any others like them (until some clever so n so makes a better version).
Personally I don't like the idea of FPSEs as it takes out the learning process of ASP.
The best advice anyone can be given is:
Use whats best and easiest for you to use.
Dan
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 17:44:50
One thing I still do not understand is what is different about FP that you think makes it somewhat harder to learn right off the bat.
I noticed no changes at all to FP when I went to 2003 from 2002. There were only an added button on the top (I think) and one added button down by the HTML CODE PREVIEW tabs.
What else is different? You basically stated that it is harder to use than 2002 quote:
Far more complex to use than earlier versions
But I don't see why. Maybe I am missing something here...
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 18:02:48
Did you miss the smaller text in the first post of this thread:
Note: Everything here is based on my opinions
Dan
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 18:41:58
I know, I saw it. I just wanted to know why you thought that. You made very valid points, just one I didn't understand. I am prolly missing something, which is why I wanted to ask you why you thought it was harder to use than 2003.
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 19:39:22
Do you think the new left side was somewhat complicated?
I remember that now when I first switched over. Now, by default, there is not a Page/Folder/Navigation/Ect. navigation on the left side. Now it is just the folder list.
Do you think that is what you thought was more complex? I kind of felt the same thing for the first few times I used it.
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/6/2004 23:38:17
<.02>quote:
And for the Pro side. FPSE!!!! No other WYSIWYG editor can make forms like FP. The FP search function might be limited, however, it does work. And it works great wanna know why these work? Because Microsoft didn't invent them! They bought the package like that from Vermeer Technologies Inc. (_vti) and never managed to screw it up. </.02>
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/7/2004 0:17:36
quote:
wanna know why these work? Because Microsoft didn't invent them!
THAT EXPLAINS IT!!! LOL
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/7/2004 6:21:43
quote:
Refreshing too not to have a rehash of the old FP v DW argument.
Don't know if I'm the only one aware of this, but the FP/DW debate is NOT a worldwide web developer thing. It's ALL PERSONAL, you use what's best for you, not what someone else says is best. All the decisions have to be made by YOU, not the guy down the road, not me. The debate is between you and yourself, not you and the rest of the world
BTW, Thank You Carol for seeing that my opinions are what I state
Bobby - Haven't found anything on the FP/PHP dilemma, but I'm still looking
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/7/2004 15:35:50
I made a post int he FP 2003 forum when it was first started about the issue. Nobody gave me a clear answer on the subject. Basically, this is a HUGE problem for FP!
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RE: WYSIWYG Editors Uncovered - 4/8/2004 12:13:30
A patch would be sweet. First, you need to see what the problem is.
Create a new web site. Make two files: index.php and index2.php. Write a link from index.php to goto index2.php.
Then change the name of the index2.php file to index3.php. And you will notice it does not update the index.php link!
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