Here's the PERMANENT solution:

Open your site off the server "http://yourdomain.com" or "http://yourIPaddress" and work directly off the live server rather than open your site on the local hard drive and "publish"

You will be much happier, and the posts to this board will diminish precipitously.

Phil

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"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

I guess Tarhell is a lot better developer than I am - I make mistakes. Of course I catch them on my box BEFORE publishing, so there's no one seeing a $9.95 price instead of the correct $99.95

Going "live" to make a simple 30 second change might be OK (I still wouldn't do it), but to do all your editing live is ludicrous!

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

[This message has been edited by Gil (edited 10-14-2001).]

...and so, with that said, and in the spirit of friendly disagreement;

Gil, you ignorant slut...

You are totally wrong. Editing live off the server is the only way to live as one with FrontPage. You can't seriously tell me that the hassle of FP's publish process is preferable to the slightly slower response times when saving a change. Actually, it takes twice as long to complete a session of editing than it does saving with "ctrl-s". I manage http://yosemitefun.com on an almost daily basis, and throw up entire pages, photos, links, tables, and I have not had an extensions crash in two years! WHY would you want to make more work for yourself? I don't get it. I will concede that for those running databases their is a reason not to, but otherwise... I am tired of chasing disconnections, and stalls, and on-and-on... Who needs it?

I'm not sure I agree with you about the slow access times for people viewing the site. I regularly open IE and NS with FrontPage and view my changes as I save and I've never noticed a slower response time.

Life is good off the server.

Phil

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"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

[This message has been edited by tarheel (edited 10-15-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by tarheel:
[B
You are totally wrong. Editing live off the server is the only way to live as one with FrontPage. You can't seriously tell me that the hassle of FP's publish process is preferable to the slightly slower response times when saving a change.
[/B]

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quote:

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Actually, it takes twice as long to complete a session of editing than it does saving with "ctrl-s".

---

quote:

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I will concede that for those running databases their is a reason not to, but otherwise... I am tired of chasing disconnections, and stalls, and on-and-on... Who needs it?

---

quote:

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I'm not sure I agree with you about the slow access times for people viewing the site. I regularly open IE and NS with FrontPage and view my changes as I save and I've never noticed a slower response time.

---

Well DUH! - Of course YOU don't see the lag. But you visitors sure do...

To each his own...

Phil

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"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

quote:

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Originally posted by tarheel:
Why would I not see a delay and the rest of the world would? How does the server know it's me looking and not John Doe from Oshkosh?

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You are "on" the server, Phil.

A "new" visitor has to cconnect and go thru all the HTTP handshaking crap.

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

It also places full onus on the host to maintain back ups - personally I would be very unhappy not to have copies of my webs on my own computer.

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Katherine

InKK Design
LinKKs - Kilkenny's Online Magazine

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"Dogs have owners, cats have staff!"

I can only tell you what my experience has been. I'm a very long-time user of FP (since 1996) and have used it both ways. I have managed a FP site at two of my client's locations, utilizing a DSL line and 56k connection, as well as my own sites from home using a 56k connection. When I publish from either client's location I still get cut-offs, stalls and crashed extensions. I had the same thing from my home with 3 different hosts, and two different ISPs, and both NT and Linux/Apache. The only time my problems went away was when I was working live off the server.

Yes, it's a little slower to wait for the server to update each time you save a change, but it's not that bad, and far better than having to start and stop the publish process over and over and still not get the damned thing uploaded.

The endless posts on this board over several years from users who experience the same problems again and again and again when publishing tells me I'm not alone. The evidence is overwhleming judging by the posts here: Extensions are easily crashed by problems with the Publish process, and users are frustrated repeatedly. Look at the posts!

And, Gil, I disagree with your assertion that users experience a slower connection with my site when I'm editing off the live server. When I am "on" the server editing, and I go to my dial-up and log on to my site, the process is exactly the same as any other user. The server has no idea it's "me" any different from any other user. Yes, the IP address is captured on the log files, but the server does not interpret that info in a way that impacts the connection or browsing speed. I can't speak for database speeds, because I don't have database-intensive sites. The fact that I am "on" the server has no bearing on the servers reaction to my log-on through the internet.

Yes, I probably have played fast and loose with the backup situation, and one day it will probbaly bite me in the butt, but I make a point not to host with a host who does not backup. I pay for it, so I expect it to do what it's supposed to do, and so far so good. I've never lost a single sentence on any of my sites in 6 years.

All I can do is speak for my own experience over a long period of time under many different circumstances and pass my experiences on to users who complain about the exact same things I went through, and offer my own solutions as I experience them.

All I say is just try it, I think you will have far fewer problems. If not, then what can I say! :-)

Phil

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"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

Editing live is dodgy at the best - if you're making wholesale changes to a site, when do you save? I mean... you're going to get 5 minutes of changes up and leave the rest undone or do you you wait til it's complete and hope in the meantime you have no power cut / crashes / telephone calls etc. Also while you're saving your changes anyone visiting the site is going to get a lag - you're not going to notice cos you're busy saving. And then there's the hassle of back-ups - you then have to publish back to your hard drive - noone should take the risk of not having their site backed up, and that includes people who've been lucky for 6 years or whatever.

Editing live is playing with fire IMHO.

Cheers
Andy

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Internet Business Solutions S.L. (Spain)
Dreamweaver Users Forum

Someone explain to me this "lag" in browse response to visitors while I'm editing. This I have never heard. I'm going to test it.

The backup issue is starting to haunt me. I should do that more. But I just do the publish feature to the local "web" and walk away. I ALWAYS have to come back and start it again, or whatever. It NEVER runs smoothly. If anyone has a suggestion for making it work smoothly, reliably, TELL ME!

Phil

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"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

quote:

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Originally posted by tarheel:

Someone explain to me this "lag" in browse response to visitors while I'm editing.

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When you hit ctrl-s while editing live on the server the CPU cycles on the server goes UP, the hard disk(s) on the server starts spinning to SAVE your data instead of SERVING the data to your site visitors.

Enough ctrl-s's and things WILL slow down on your server. And don't forget that EVERY page you edit "live" is first DOWNLOADED to your local PC in a /temp file.... You make the edit and your new page isUPLOADED again form your temp file and saved on the server.....

Slow.....

Rian

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"Designing The Future"
SR Web Creators
http://www.srwebcreators.com

"What boots up must come down..."

Thanks for the explanation; but doesn't the same cpu cycle occur when you're publishing? And the publish cycle lasts a lot longer than a simple ctrl-s... A ctrl-s cpu cycle lasts only about 15 seconds at most. Publish can take how long??????

I was aware of the temp file issue;

I guess I'm really surprised at the negative response to the recommendation of live server editing. Granted, it's not a perfect scenario, but I think it's a WAY lesser of two evils. My own experience is that it has completely eliminated ALL my publishing hassles, and has done so for about two years now.

To each his own, I guess.

Phil

------------------
"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

quote:

---

Originally posted by tarheel:
I "save" (ctrl-s) several times per session. If I add a paragraph, I save. Add some more, and save. Add a photo and save. Delete and save.

---

quote:

---

Someone explain to me this "lag" in browse response to visitors while I'm editing. This I have never heard. I'm going to test it.

---

quote:

---

issue is starting to haunt me. I should do that more. But I just do the publish feature to the local "web" and walk away. I ALWAYS have to come back and start it again, or whatever. It NEVER runs smoothly. If anyone has a suggestion for making it work smoothly, reliably, TELL ME!

---

Sounds like a ISP problem to me. I always click "Publish" and go get coffee and 'boom' it's done.

------------------
Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

quote:

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Originally posted by tarheel:
but doesn't the same cpu cycle occur when you're publishing

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Sounds like a good point to me, saving one page in one session is a heck of a lot faster than publishing and processing updates?

quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky:

Sounds like a good point to me, saving one page in one session is a heck of a lot faster than publishing and processing updates?

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If it's just ONE page maybe..... But if you then have to publish back to your local machine for a backup does that not defeat the purpose??

Rian

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"Designing The Future"
SR Web Creators
http://www.srwebcreators.com

"What boots up must come down..."

Add the slow down to visitors (yes, Phil it does slow it down!), the chance that a small typo, mistake, or whatever is one the WWW instead of my HDD and I see no reason to ever work live.

I also don't see any way it could take longer to publish than to work live, BUT if it took 50% longer, I'd say that it was worth it.

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gil:
You will have to "Publish" either way - to the server or back to your hard drive. Difference is I want my copy secure before I trust it to the server, not after.

[/B]

---

It's been my experience that local hard drives and operating systems crash much more frequently than a server goes south and loses ALL information. In fact, I have never heard of a server in a reputable hosting company losing all the information that was on it forever. Sure, servers crash, but a hosting company worth it's salt backs up on a daily basis. I'm sure it has happened, but I've not heard of it with anywhere NEAR the frequency that local Windows systems do. On the other hand, few of us have ever escaped a crashed hard drive and ALL of us have experienced OS lock-ups. I'd be more fearful of my local system going down than the host server. That's why I don't lose a lot of sleep not backing up to the local hard drive.

Dreamweaver, on the other hand, has an excellent publish process that is always reliable, so editing off the local hard drive is a defacto occurance. Just edit, save and click on "put". Subsequently, I always backup my Dreamweaver sites on CD.

FYI, I spent a considerable amount of time with the FP helpdesk once trying to solve my FP publish hassles, and they had no answer. So, faced with that situation, I do what works. And, evidently, others on this board have the same problem.

Clarification: Is the slow-down ONLY when you are posting to the server or is it also caused by my being logged on through FP?

Thanks folks...

Phil

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"If God is not a Tar Heel, then why are hyperlinks default-colored Carolina blue?"
http://www.1awebhosting.com
1A Web Hosting for Frontpage.

I've had HDD's crash and went thru W95, so of course I had a lot of OS lockups , but have never lost a html file or site on my own machine. Never!

I agree, a host companies server crashing is a very rare thing nowdays - but my background trained me to never have more than 30 minutes of work (coding) without an "external" backup. Old habits die hard...

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Gil Harvey
The Host Factory
Resellers are our speciality
"Indecision may or may not be my problem"