RE: W3 Validation is a scam (Full Version)

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caz -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:22:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Minix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peppergal

quote:

I'll do it on principle.


And how, pray tell, can you do it if you don't know what the standards are?


Are you telling me that there was no way to accomodate the visually impaired on the internet until somebody wrote the standards?


That's not what is being said here. Before the standards were agreed no one was sure how best to accommodate all users of the web, with all their different requirements. The standards pull together a mass of information to make it easier for designers to do their work, and that includes validation.

CSS and accessiblity standards are tools and anyone who is doing web design would be foolish to ignore the tools of the trade.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:22:16)

I still don't understand why you think it is a scam... but I will address a few things.

quote:

Explain to me why the internet needs standards that all must adhere - to consider the "disabled" as you call them, bu the rest of the media society does not.

- It needs a standard to help developers code for the better half of the internet. Don't you agree? If you think it is a problem for visually impared folks, why don't you start a company that goes around and instead of writing text on page, you record speech and sell it to these various web sites.

If someone can't see, there is a lot that they are unable to do now, viewing web sites on the internet is one of them.

quote:

Explain to me why every newspaper printed doesn't have standards that allows the visually impaired to have equal access to the content via Braille incorporated into every edition.

- The newspapers would have to print an entire new newspaper. They couldn't have a standard that allows people who can and cant see to read a document. If newspapers thought that this was a serious issue, they would provide news in the form of braille. I myself don't see too many targets for this, and I think it would be a waste of money. But if you really think it is a problem, why don't you do some research on the amount of people who would buy this, and then write a letter to a newspaper? If you can prove your point, they will start doing this.


quote:

Explain to me why every magazine published in the US doesn't have an accepted standard so that the visually impaired can pick up a copy and be assured that the content is Braille friendly.

- Same point above.

quote:

Expalin to me why every restaraunt in America doesn't have to adhere to a standard that every menu that they print is "impaired friendly" so that they can sell to everybody.

- I have to be honest here when I say that I have never seen someone who requires braille in a restaraunt. If everyone required a second napkin in resturants, I am sure they would accomidate this. But spending a lot of money to make menus who those who require braille to read, seems pointless because there are not enough people who would require them.
Also, why doesn't the people who brought the man/women who is unable to read a menu, read it for him or her? That would be the only logical thing to do.

All of my comments are based on experience. I could be wrong, and there could be thousands of blind men and women who go out to eat in normal everyday resturants, but I do not see them.



Peppergal -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:22:55)

Well, Minix - you'd be free to download every web browser onto your computer, test each one and try to figure out the bugs yourself, as to why something works in a, b, and d, but not c and e. Or, you can test your pages against the "standards" that almost all browsers save one go by and pretty much guarantee it will work in all those browsers save one...

it's your headache.



pageoneresults -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:27:28)

quote:

Ignored for a long time by many developers, standards such as HTTP, HTML or XML are at the very core of the success of the Web. The current trend of stressing standards compliance on the Web is not due to chance: they are a win-win for all participants.

Developed by experts and with input from the whole Web community, standards work together to provide the foundation to build increasingly powerful applications. Standards are the result of a lot of energy and expertise and are available for free: don't miss the opportunity to benefit from their leveraging effect!

Buy standards compliant Web sites

Don't let Minix pull the wool over your eyes! ;)



cooper -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:28:34)

Frankly, I think the folks behind W3 Validation are employees of Linux and former employees of Netscape as a site that uses a Microsoft FrontPage them will not validate. [;)] [:D]



caz -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:38:10)

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Excellent!

Cheers all

quote:

ORIGINAL: cooper

Frankly, I think the folks behind W3 Validation are employees of Linux and former employees of Netscape as a site that uses a Microsoft FrontPage them will not validate. [;)] [:D]



Minix -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:38:25)

This isn't about standards. It's about the W3 validation process.

Standards are good, maybe even necessary. The W3 validation process is neither.



pageoneresults -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 11:59:43)

quote:

This isn't about standards. It's about the W3 validation process.

Yes it about standards. And, yes it is about W3 validation. The two work hand in hand together. How can you implement standards if you are not going to write valid code?



BobbyDouglas -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 15:40:34)

Minix, what is wrong with the W3C process?

I think there is something that isn't quite getting across. The standards for building a site should be well known, and will hopefully be followed.

Im sure everyone has different views on this issue, I just don't quite understand what you are talking about.



davids -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 16:09:53)

Minix, I'm not sure why you find standards so objectionable. Once in a while, like today, I have to deal with someone using a 4.0 browser who can't see or use something on a page. HTML could not stay in its 1996 stage forever. If we want to do newer, cooler, better things, page markup had to develop.

Thanks to standards, that development has meant that a conforming page will appear pretty much the same in IE, Netscape, Safari, Opera, etc. Usually, when I have a problem, I can find it through validation.

Sure, I can develop a site just using html without CSS, and cross my fingers, but I will be doing my client a great disservice in terms of the usability and future maintenance of the site. I get quite a few sites handed to me that are very cool and slick, but they are unreadable, difficult to navigate, unfriendly to search engines, and generally poorly designed in every way except creatively.

Creativeness is only one aspect of "creating" a site. For the client's sake now and in the future you have to go beyond that.



gorilla -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 17:12:41)

No its not a scam. Validation is used to help the web coder determine whether or not their code meets the standards. It is a tool nothing more.

The standards are there as a guide. Developers are free to use them or not. If they choose not to use them that is their decision and they (and their clients) will have to live with whatever consequences flow from the decision.

The standards are in a way similar to grammar. It is entirely possible to express oneself clearly and vigorously while breaking every "rule" of grammar. The problem with so doing is that one increases the likelihood of being misunderstood. The analaogy with W3C standards and of validation should be clear.

Finally as somebody who has been around on Outfront for quite a while may I state that one of the reasons why I spend less and less time here and more and more time on other fora is because of the increasingly venomous tone of many of the postings.

This topic is a prime example. It started bad and went rapidly downhill from there. A pity really OF used to be a very nice place.



BobbyDouglas -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/22/2004 17:40:10)

I find the discussion on this rather interesting though... I am not suprised at the outcome of the responses at all, I do think Minix might have a better understanding on this matter now after all of the different voices on the subject.

quote:

Finally as somebody who has been around on Outfront for quite a while may I state that one of the reasons why I spend less and less time here and more and more time on other fora is because of the increasingly venomous tone of many of the postings.

- I think everyone is glad to see you sticking around here. Many of us look up to your wisdom. [8|]



Jammin1234 -> RE: W3 Validation is a scam (4/27/2004 3:32:29)

Hey, I need 30 posts



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