Frameset - Hide Borders (Full Version)

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dcoffin -> Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 0:14:11)

I tried validating this code but it warns me with "there is no attribute frameborder=0" and "there is no attribute framespacing=0". Without this attribute I can't hide the frames. Any ideas about what I am doing wrong? 



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Frameset//EN">
<html>

<head>
</head>

<frameset cols="126,*"  frameborder=0 framespacing=0>
  <frame frameborder=0 marginHeight=0 marginWidth=0 name=FlightMenu noResize scrolling=no src="menu.html">
  <frameset rows="125,*" frameborder=0 framespacing=0>
    <frame frameborder=0 marginHeight=0 marginWidth=0 name=Monkeytop noResize scrolling=no src="top.html">
    <frame frameborder=0 marginHeight=0 marginWidth=0 name=Flightmain src="main.htm" scrolling="auto" target="_parent">
  </frameset>
</frameset>

</html>


I did read the W3C standard and there is no reference to border or frameborder for the frameset tag. I also don't see anyway to hide them without using it.



Giomanach -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 1:24:03)

Try using CSS. Something like following between your <head> tags should do it:

<style type="text/css">
frameset{
frameborder: 0px;
}
</style>

HTH

Dan



dcoffin -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 2:40:23)

Tried that but to no avail. It seems that this may be one of those quirks. Netscape, Mozilla and IE support the frameborder, framespacing, and border attribute but HTML 4.01 doesn't. Makes you wonder whose really setting the standards? I am glad to see the browser developers seeing the benefits of hidden frames.

At the very minimum I find I only need the border attribute to hide the frames.frameborder and frame spacing aren't neccesary. 

<frameset cols="126,*" border="0px">
  <frame marginHeight=0 marginWidth=0 name="FlightMenu" noResize scrolling=no src="menu.html">
  <frameset rows="114,*">
    <frame marginHeight=0 marginWidth=0 name="Monkeytop" noResize scrolling=no src="top.html">
    <frame marginHeight=0 marginWidth=0 name="Flightmain" src="main.htm" scrolling="auto" target="_self">
  </frameset>
</frameset>



d a v e -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 2:50:51)

the W3C really set the standards.

of course it would be better to not use frames at all
http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
because you can replicate all/most aspects with valid html/css without resorting to frames.



dcoffin -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 3:16:53)

That's what they sayyyyy...... but I 've yet to see a decent two column css page and that url is proof of that. Stretch it horizontally and that font is all over the place. Try it with three columns and your off to the funny farm. I'd love to be convinced otherwise.



dcoffin -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 3:18:24)

>> the W3C really set the standards

That's true but not everyone follows it. But when they do the W3C ought to adopt it such as in this case with framesets.



d a v e -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 3:29:49)

quote:

Stretch it horizontally and that font is all over the place
I can't replicate thatb in my browser - can you post a screen shot?

quote:

Their even using frames on that URL with the ad on the bottom!
are they? i can't see it in the source - maybe you could show me where.

http://glish.com/css/7.asp funny farm?

anyway if you're not comfortable trying it with css then you can always stick with a table based, css controlled layout.



dcoffin -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 3:43:36)

>> can you post a screen shot?

No. The text font flys under the menu on the right while you resize the window horizontally and then it snaps into the correct place. Maybe if it was a fixed size it wouldn't do that.

>> anyway if you're not comfortable trying it with css then you can always stick with a table based, css controlled layout.

I wouldn't mind trying it but I don't think it's it possible or practical with 3 columns. At least I haven't seen any good demonstrations of it. Most of the sites I do have three columns.

ps. That ad in another frame across the bottom may have the result of another website that I was in before I linked to the site you suggested.



d a v e -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 3:50:53)

can't get the text thing like you say.

did look at the glishlink for 3 col layout? plus you could just use tables anyway instead, far better than frames, but you have to choose what works the site and if you're happiest using frames even with all the negative aspects then that's your choice :)



FlowerPower -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 6:23:49)

Eeek! Didn't know frames were that bad. I've been using them quite a bit, and have used JavaScript pulldown menus for navigation, without considering what might happen to those users who have turned off javascript. Time to broaden my horizons, I guess...

If frames are evil, how do FrontPage's shared borders rate in this respect? Like frames, they appear to let the developer implement in one go navigation elements and a title image, and then have that repeated on pages within the site. Do shared borders steer clear of some of the evils of frames?

FP [&:]



dcoffin -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 11:07:14)

Most of the arguements against frames were made years ago. Since then they have come into much wider use. Also.. who turns off java script? Java script is everywhere. 100% usage if I'm reading my logs correctly.



d a v e -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/2/2004 11:53:00)

most of the arguments were made years ago because that's when most professional designers gave up using them.
quote:

Since then they have come into much wider use
have they?! for commercial and professional sites?!

and how do you go about bookmarking issues and SE placement and usability issues?

maybe your stats for javascript usage are 100% because users with it turned off don't visit your site;)



FlowerPower -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/4/2004 0:16:17)

So let's say I have a site with a large number of pages which can be lumped into a few main categories, each of which contains a few subcategories. Typically, this is where one would choose some sort of expandable menu. Is there a way to implement this kind of navigation scheme without using javascript or similar?

FP



ellipisces -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/4/2004 1:14:05)

quote:

Also.. who turns off java script? Java script is everywhere. 100% usage if I'm reading my logs correctly.
globally it's like 7 - 8% have it off. Often it's large organizations, schools, that don't allow it, and they configure the browser via profiles, so that the user couldn't turn it on if they wanted to.

Frameset pages have been deprecated for a long time. I usually opt for Template pages that utilize CSS and includes for navigation.



FlowerPower -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/6/2004 8:09:14)

Okay, if frames are deprecated, I'd like to learn to do things the proper way!

I took a quick sweep across the web today [:D] and peeked at the source code on a number of professional sites, and as you say, it all seemed to be done with CSS and HTML tables. No framesets in sight.

I know I need to put in the hours/days/weeks required to sit down with a book/website and study this properly, but is the general idea then to do the positioning of elements across the page with HTML tables/CSS, and to actually repeat on every page such elements as would stay put in a site set up with frames (e.g. a top frame with a title, a left frame with a menu, etc...)? I take it even if these need to be downloaded for each page, the slight increase in loading time is still definitely worth it?

Another thing, re: javascript. There was a hint somewhere in outfrontnews or in the forum today about DHTML menus from www.opencub.com (which by the way look really cool). As far as I could tell at a glance, these involved javascript code. Aren't major businesses using this concerned about users whose browsers cannot deal with these menus? Or am I mistaken in thinking the menus were made with javascript?

Thanks for patient replies!
FlowerPower



Giomanach -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/6/2004 8:16:39)

Creating pages without frames - simple

You can use includes, CSS frames. Frames aren't supported by all browsers anyway, so it's bad move right from the start. You won't see it, but my latest project (http://aa.1asphost.com/giomanach/client/GAPI/option2 - temp host) is done with CSS, tables and includes.

For more info on that, let us know

As for learning HTML/CSS - http://www.w3schools.com - those guys wrote the standards so they will be able to provide you with all you need.

Most companies worry about using DHTML menus because they aren't read too well by the spiders/webbots. This means that any back links within those menus won't have any effect on Page Ranks. You are correct in saying that they are written using JavaScript - but as ellipisces has said, users are starting to turn off JavaScript - how would you navigate the page with out a menu. My recommendations - use a simple but effective CSS menu.

Any clearer for you?

Dan



FlowerPower -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/6/2004 8:45:29)

Thank you! I love this forum - people are extremely helpful, and there are also so many people using it that replies appear within a very short time.

I agree about w3schools being a great resource. I have used it a bit for reference, but not systematically as a learning tool (yet!). I first came across this site about a year ago when I read the local paper in my (then) hometown on the southwest corner of Norway. A very ordinary smalltown family (dad, daughter and son) from a tiny place in countryside Norway called Hommersåk had started their own business called Refsnes Data, and in 2000 created a web site with tutorials on various web related topics. From these humble beginnings w3schools has now turned into one of the leading online web development schools in the world, with millions of visitors a day. Quite amazing - the office is in the basement of their family home.

Cool to see how the Internet makes it possible for people with skills and ideas to develop great things, even if they don't have huge sums of money to invest at the outset...

FP



FlowerPower -> RE: Frameset - Hide Borders (5/6/2004 8:57:20)

About Refsnes Data (who creates www.w3schools.com).



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