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LoriL1212 -> The change has been made (5/2/2004 2:18:48)

Introducing the "new and improved tableless" Zenful Creations!

http://www.zenfulcreations.com/new/

Still have a minor tweak on the alignment of the phone# and top nav to show in IE correctly, but all is perfect in Mozz! Please check it out, and tell me of any errors you see.

I am in the process of converting all the pages to the new layout, so the links still go to the old pages with tables.


............ BUT, I did it! I said I would not, because I thought it would take too long to get the positioning thing down and tables were so easy - but actually, this was not all that bad.

Thanks Deb for helping me with the questions I had!

All future sites for my clients will be done tableless :)



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 2:43:40)

well done! looks really good. I was just wondering how you managed to get an AAA on bobby when your links are the same colour as your text and not underlined or anything?! actually i'm not sure how anyone gets AAA on Bobby ;)



jaybee -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 5:28:43)

Well done Lori it looks great.

Don't get too carried away though I have two examples on the go at the moment where tables are the only sensible way to go, either that or so many divs and classes in the HTML it's not worth bothering.

Dave, if you check out her page under Bobby you'll find it does conform. Textually, the links do appear with underlines.



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 5:45:05)

quote:

Textually, the links do appear with underlines.

what does that mean?

these links don't
quote:

# Projects in Development
# Client List
# Complete Project Listing
# Resume
# Worksheets and Contract
# Website Templates



c1sissy -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 6:15:21)

Lori, It was a pleasure helping you out. All the time that you spent with me on my pc problem, this was a good way for me to return the favor.

You were a pleasure to work with, and I liked that you didn't give up.

I'm proud of you, and the accomplishment that you have achieved. It does look like the other one.

Good Job!



jaybee -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 7:11:23)

If you look at the page as Bobby sees it they do have underlines.

Not sure how, but they do.



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 8:00:11)

maybe but who browses with the bobby browser?
well it's not a big thing, just curious; I also thought it would be better from a usability point of view to have some different presentation for the links?



gorilla -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 11:22:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: d a v e
who browses with the bobby browser?


Quite a lot of disabled people :-)

Personally I think bobby is overrated don't always take what it says as gospel. Remember it is automated.

Lori - nice job.

I also have a project on hand that I've ditched pure css layout for and used tables. I may even go for plan "c" and nest a stack of the things like mad.

CU

M



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 11:43:21)

i perfer cynthia says (or A-prompt or WAVE), which of course are all automated as well but my point was this

" If you look at the page as Bobby sees it they do have underlines."
but a lot of people (say 98%?!) don't browse with bobby and therefore won't see the underlines.



gorilla -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 12:01:41)

No argument from me on any of the above. Cynthia says and APrompt are far superior. Haven't had time to get to grips with WAVE properly yet so can't comment.

I wasn't actually contradicting you on underlining - and your 98% point is well taken. From a visual accessibility POV some differentation of links is a good idea. Most people expect underlines so that is worth considering first. Lots of other ways of doing it 'though.



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 12:32:07)

i think it needs something. I have the same concern with my work place's new website that their headlines are links (it's a regional newspaper) but they are identical to normal text. when i pointed this out they said "yes, but look when you hover over it you can see it's a link" doh!
well anyway that's my little moan over with! :)



BobbyDouglas -> RE: The change has been made (5/2/2004 13:21:24)

Only suggestion I see is to change the rollover color of the top part to look more like the other design. Right now it is a little bit hard to read.



LoriL1212 -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 9:10:43)

Jaybee:

Don't get me wrong - as you and many know, I am have always been very firm in my use of tables. However, as I see it (now) even if it does take a little longer (due to positioning) you really "can" create sites in full CSS, with NO tables at all ------- that means (for me) that I have to look a designing a little different.

When I make my mockups I have to think about what I would have to use tables for and then try to find another way to do it so that tables are completely eliminated. I know that doing design as I always have works, and is fast - but I think that telling a client that their site will coded to "standards" is a good selling point for me and will in turn bring me a great deal more projects. So, the bottom line after all that (LOL) is that I will design in full CSS - but not completely eliminate tables under a deadline; however, if not pressed for time, I will either redesign the part that needs to be in a table, or spend the time positioning so to eliminate it.

Dave:

CSS ZenGarden (another inspiration for my change) has the AAA passed link on their page too, and they have no underlines as well. I tested mine, and none of what was listed applied (and CSS ZenGarden has some things too, that also don't apply) to my page, so I placed the link. In your opinion, what should I do? Elminate that link even though I pass? Why (in your opinion) would CSS ZenGarden place it on their site if they too do not have the links underlined? Just wondering your thoughts here...

Gorilla

Since you seem to me to be very savvy at CSS, I am interested in what problem you are having that you can't use CSS and are going to use tables instead. It may be something that I could run into later, so I am wondering what it is that you are trying to do? I know you are busy, so if you have some time, I would love to know (short answer).

Bobby

Thanks for pointing out the hover color - I thought I already changed that (which I did and forgot to upload it). It was unreadable and now should be better :) Can you check it for me and tell me if that is better?



jaybee -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 9:35:24)

Lori,

I love it! I said exactly the same until I came up against this

If you figure out a way to get that to look identical using pure css I'm all ears. [:D]



Giomanach -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 11:26:45)

Lori

You know as well as I do, I try to avoid using tables as much as possible, and it's not all that hard is it? lol. I'll be on stand by if you need help with it here and there. Only problem is, the site for Mr Hobbs has more tables than a cafeteria[&:][:D]

Looking fantastic, now if only I could get to them standards...[;)][:D]



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 11:45:39)

quote:

site for Mr Hobbs has more tables than a cafeteria


that's funny! [:D]

p.s. lori will answer tonight or tomorrow...



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 16:33:14)

Lori - I see you have underlines now! Well to be honest i didn't really find anything to say that links have to be different in some from regular text (either by size, underlining, colour...) but at least from an accessibility point of view they 'should'. at least why make it hard on users and risk them missing the links as normal text?

When i wrote the first time I assumed that this might have been in one of the level 3 priority manual checks, but i ddin't find anything.

well i think they look a lot better with underlines (or they could have been a different colour)

the nearest thing i did find was
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#navigation
but that's talking about consistency across pages. still you could argue that it would apply to link consistency within a page, after all why would some links be different from vanilla text and not others?! well you could argue that if you could be bothered ;)

anyway it was more me thinking out loud, but it looks even better! i think it looks amazingly nice and you should be very proud - I wish me design skills were better than just vanilla! yours must be belgaian chocolate or something.

oh just to be picky about links (still!?) on the services page (http://www.zenfulcreations.com/services.html) the list

Design services include:

* Graphic design
* Interactive design
* Interface design
* Content development
* Information architecture
* Webmaster Services
really looks like a plain list except the last one is a link - is this just because you haven't linked in the other pages? should it be underlined/coloured?

ok i'll stop being a pain in the butt.



LoriL1212 -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 17:24:46)

Jaybee:

That can be done in CSS ---- HOWEVER, that table should remain a table (gorilla, dave, someone correct me if I am wrong) because it actually what a table is supposed to be used for (again, at least that is my say).

Dan:

Ugh on that project - I know you have your hands full there. I will definately look to you if I have questions (and I can't find Deb to bug)

Dave:

I think you saw it when I was updating the stylesheet, and now that is complete. So there are no underlines (except on hover) but they are a purple shade and bold with bullets. Let me know if that still looks ok to you. That is what the links are SUPPOSED to look like on the site, but I have my styles a bit amuck (another reason I am trying to change it up).

The link u mentioned is in the original version, and should be all updated by later this week, including better text. I have never paid much mind to what is in my site (at least the past year) as I have had no time between clients to do anything that I would like to with it. So nothing that you see on the original site is yet changed (and there have never been links there on the services page except that one).

Thank you - I love Belgian Chocolate :) Oh, and be picky --- it is your pickiness that makes a perfect site!



c1sissy -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 17:31:06)

quote:

(and I can't find Deb to bug)

lol, now lori, you know most of the time I am here [;)][:D]

I also agree with Dave, you did an excellent Job and you should be proud of yourself and your work!



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 18:00:57)

was going to write that what jaybee was trying to do is exactly the sort of thing that belongs in a table (my isp went down when i was halfway through)



gorilla -> RE: The change has been made (5/3/2004 18:32:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoriL1212

HOWEVER, that table should remain a table ....


Correct.

The answer to your other question has more to do with ergonomics and nn4.7x than anything else. Sometimes you have to code down :-) She has yet to see all the variations so I'll be interested in her reaction.



jaybee -> RE: The change has been made (5/4/2004 3:45:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lori

That can be done in CSS ---- HOWEVER, that table should remain a table


Yes, that's what I've done. Makes a vast difference to the page size.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dave
(my isp went down when i was halfway through)


That happened to me yesterday too but my half finished message got posted. Weird.


quote:

ORIGINAL: gorilla

She has yet to see all the variations so I'll be interested in her reaction.


Who? Me?

I've checked out my css'd tables in all the current browsers and they look pretty similar. Haven't got Netscape4 though so can't check.



gorilla -> RE: The change has been made (5/4/2004 8:54:32)

No not you JB. You're not one of my "pro bono" cases and everyone else is on a very very long waiting list. Which I've now closed because it would nice to get one night with 6½ hours sleep sometime in the next few years. :-)

I suggest you go to evolt and get nn4.77 or 4.78 when you need it you need it bad.



d a v e -> RE: The change has been made (5/4/2004 9:00:19)

what do you mean? I think it very streamlined and minimalist in nn4.7... ;)



jaybee -> RE: The change has been made (5/4/2004 12:01:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gorilla

No not you JB. You're not one of my "pro bono" cases and everyone else is on a very very long waiting list. Which I've now closed because it would nice to get one night with 6½ hours sleep sometime in the next few years. :-)

I suggest you go to evolt and get nn4.77 or 4.78 when you need it you need it bad.


Whew, thank heavens for that. I thought I'd screwed up somewhere and missed it.

I'm in 2 minds about getting Netscape 4. Something tells me I'm much happier in Ostrich mode.



gorilla -> RE: The change has been made (5/4/2004 12:55:10)

Hmmmm you mean you enjoy sticking your head down bunny rabbit warren holes and standing there with your **** in the air saying to NN4

"c'mon give my visitors a horrible shock go on go on .... "

well there's no accounting for taste I suppose [:D]

(Gorilla runs from the room giggling to himself before jb has a chance to read this posting in its entirety ..... )


Get it anyway - its handy (if horrible) to have around. [:)]



jaybee -> RE: The change has been made (5/4/2004 13:26:33)

You've been peeking!!!!!

OK, I'll get it and then stick my **** in the air. [:D]



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