quote:

without having to duplicate the table rows and columns and all that hooplah. any and all info in the main page would either be some sort of news, or links to other pages, which would then be opened in a new window.

quote:

ORIGINAL: briesmith

We're just about finishing the development of a large ASP driven website which is totally dependent on frames.

At the outset the developers were riven by argument about frames; whether or not to use them. The pro-frames camp won the day and we went ahead with a frames based design.

The advantages are clear in terms of performance, screen stability and page management. CSS and/or tables remain available without restriction and menuing is, if anything, facilitated.
> what perfromance gain is there in using frames when you have at least 2 times as many html doucments?
screen stability is a question of good design and site architecture.
css and/or tables are 'available' whether or not you use frames. how do you account for differnces in screen settings (e.g. 800x600 etc) when designing menus where differnces are likely to result in scroll bars appearing?
you can't use dropdown menus unless they fit in the frame as they won't display across frames.

Relying on ASP and supporting classes means that heavy processing loads are placed on the server and significant quantities of code are sent to the clients. Reducing the amount of screen area that changes with each page access helps to mitigate the impact of these two factors.
> your code should be lean in the first place

Additionally, limiting the amount of screen area that changes also helps with readability. Frames allow headline graphics and menus to remain on screen without "flickering" or, on slower systems, slowly refreshing each time a page is accessed.
> users are *more* used to using unframed pages than framed pages so readability is again down to good usability. headline graphics are cached and will simply be displayed again without the need for downloading.

Text and other graphical material in the "content" frame scrolls independently of the other frames. Users as a result see a consistent screen structure and the menus remain available at all times.
> this is about the only 'advantage' i see in frames, but users are so used to the non-frame left menu, shortish page structure that it isn't a problem anyway.

As an aside, an understanding of "content=" and iframes has turned out to be important; without it, maintaining the consistency of the frames and some aspects of navigation would have been difficult.

I would say if a frames approach is right for what your business website is trying to do then use it and pay no attention to purists and theoreticians.

The old concerns about crawlers not finding frame contained content don't matter if your website is a commercial application that users will either come to or not and with the increasing reliance on paid-for page ranking the importance of crawlers/spiders is declining. And always remember that if your content is ASP or otherwise script generated, crawlers and spiders won't find it anyway.

Not all web activity is "search and surf"; more and more site visits are deliberate and repeated; think of Amazon, eBay, DELL and so on. If you are building a website to cater for the kind of needs Amazon visitors, say, have then forget about frames from a conceptual perspective and ask yourself " would my website offer better performance, improved visitor experience and be easier to develop and maintain if I used frames?"

If the answer is "yes" then so be it.

quote:

I would say if a frames approach is right for what your business website is trying to do then use it and pay no attention to purists and theoreticians.

quote:

Pace dave

quote:

PS dpf: You CANNOT bookmark dynamically generated content

quote:

But frames - especially the top bar, side bar, content frame - are a doddle to design and shouldn't present any problems even to a beginner.

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quote:

Oh and just one more thing... has anyone noticed that we haven't heard from the inital poster for a while???

Leanne

<script type="text/javascript">
//====================================================================================================
// ECMAv3 allows parseInt to infer that a number is octal (radix 8) if it has a leading '0'. 
// Replace with function that defaults to decimal (radix 10) whether or not there is a leading '0'.
//====================================================================================================
// Save original function
this.parseIntOrig = this.parseInt;	
// Replace with function that calls on to original, passing explicit radix.
this.parseInt = function() 
{ 
	return parseIntOrig(arguments[0], arguments.length == 1 ? 10 : arguments[1]);
};
</script>
<script language="Javascript">
var params = new Params();
function Params()
{
    this.awayReportDeadline = 72;
    this.equalPointsRule = 1;
    this.headerFrameTitle = '<span style=\"font-size:18pt\">WEST HERTS ARLON PRINTERS SATURDAY LEAGUE</span><span style=\"font-size:12pt\">West Herts Football Club Association Established 1891</span><span style=\"font-size:9pt\">Affiliated to the Hertfordshire Football Association</span>';
    this.homeReportDeadline = 72;
    this.matchDays = 0000001;
    this.matchSecretaryEmail = '';
    this.maxDivisionsPerRegion = 4;
    this.maxDivisionsPerRegionRow = 3;
    this.maxPlayersPerSide = 14;
    this.maxSidesPerClub = 3;
    this.maxSidesPerDivision = 11;
    this.nofRegions = 1;
    this.pointsForDraw = 1;
    this.pointsForWin = 3;
    this.refereeReportDeadline = 72;
    this.regionTerm = 'Section';
    this.styleSheetName = 'Shady_Gray';
    this.currSeasonID = 1;
    this.leagueName = 'West Herts League';
    this.shortLeagueName = 'West Herts';
    this.seasonStartDate = '4/9/04';
    this.seasonEndDate = '31/5/05';
}
</script>


<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 6.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<script language="JavaScript" src="jscripts/standardHead.js"></script>
<title>
West Herts
</title>
</head>

<script>
function setContentTitle(title)
{
	top.frames['titlebar'].document.getElementById('contentTitle').innerText = title != null ? title : top.frames['content'].document.title;
}

function refreshFrames() 	
{
	refreshHeaderFrame();
	refreshTitlebarFrame();
	refreshMenuFrame();
}
function refreshHeaderFrame()
{
	frames['header'].location.replace('header_frame.asp');
}
function refreshTitlebarFrame()
{
	frames['titlebar'].location.replace('titlebar_frame.asp');
}
function refreshMenuFrame()
{
	frames['menu'].location.replace('menu_frame.asp');
}

function reloadAll()
{
	top.location.reload();
}

function showHomePage()
{
	frames['content'].location.replace('info_page.asp?pagetype=1');
}

function blankPage()
{
	return('<html>\n' +
		   '<head>\n' +
		   '<link rel="stylesheet" href="css/Shady_Gray.css">\n' +
		   '</head>\n' +
		   '<body>\n' +
	       '<div id="divContent" class="content"></div>\n' +
	       '</body>\n' +
	       '</html>');
}

//	Return path to site root folder. Path is returned with a trailing "/" eg "/" or "/LMan/".
function rootFolderPath()
{
	return '/';
}

//	Once frameset is loaded with header, menu and blank page, we can load the content frame. We have to wait
// 	for header to be loaded because the content page will access it to set the page title bar.
function loadContentFrame()
{
	if('info_page.asp?pagetype=1' != '')
		frames['content'].location.replace('info_page.asp?pagetype=1');
}
</script>
<frameset id="topFrameset" rows="95,20,*" frameborder="0" framespacing="0" onload="loadContentFrame()">
	<frame name="header" scrolling="no" famespacing="0" noresize src="header_frame.asp" target="content">
	<frame name="titlebar" scrolling="no"  famespacing="0" noresize src="titlebar_frame.asp" target="content">
	<frameset cols="180,*" id="appFrameset"  frameborder="0" border="0">
		<frame name="menu" src="menu_frame.asp" scrolling="auto" frameborder="0" noresize="noresize" style="display:none" target="content">
	    <frame name="content" src="javascript:top.blankPage()" scrolling="auto" frameborder="0" noresize="noresize">
	</frameset>
</frameset>
<noframes>

<body>

<p>This page uses frames, but your browser doesn't support them.</p>

</body>
</noframes>

</html>

quote:


Hopefully, these sites show an application of frames that justifies their appropriate use

quote:

Hopefully, these sites show an application of frames that justifies their appropriate use.