Deb - CSS3 yet? (Full Version)

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bobby -> Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 1:08:03)

Deb -

Have you read much about CSS3? I'm already drooling.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-css3-roadmap-20010523/

I was jumping through the proposal from W3C tonight and they've included some nifty tricks. Like using multiple images for borders... including images for corners and corner radius for rounded corners!

Rotating and shifting images, aural stylesheets, CSS Columns (For columnar layouts)...

I wonder if XML will have changed the way websites are built on a broad scale before this actually gets approved, released and adopted by the major browsers..?

[:D][:D][:D]



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 2:09:02)

quote:

adopted by the major browsers..?

All but IE[:D]



caz -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 5:58:08)

quote:

I wonder if XML will have changed the way websites are built on a broad scale

I am not too sure about the nuts and bolts of XML Bobby, but already the UK open government initiative is working with the W3C in ensuring that the application of the metadata elements will be compliant for the future. This is building standards for websites to which their contractors and content providers must adhere.

The UK booktrade are already using XML in their "Onix" application which allows for the 'semantic web' approach in the use of metadata eg. in addition to title= and author=, there are tags for edition, revision, publisher, place of publication. Significantly the keyword area is becoming more useful for searching in that additions are including classification to known systems such as Library of Congress Subject Headings, Dewey,UDC and others. Published thesaurii, ontologies, taxonomies etc are being used as content descriptors too.

The move to the semantic web will impose a discipline on both designers and content providers which has been lacking and is what makes todays' SE's appear like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut[;)]. In future there will be much more precision rather than absolute recall in search results because there will be many more choices available to construct a precise search enquiry.

Of course this also means search engines have to be more intelligent to utilise all this extra power and also more user friendly in order that the user can benefit.

I think that it is all very exiting for the future, but I am also relieved to see that CSS is playing a big part in all this development - phew[;)]

Here finishes the whirlwind tour of information retrieval[:D]
Cheers
Carol



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 8:48:53)

I have not glanced at the css3 recomendations yet, but in my readings some of the things are mentioned. There is even going to be a difference in how you display lists so that they can be used more easily for doing navigations.

xml, is the next thing that I am going to learn. I have one book sitting on my shelf next to the computer on xml, but refues to pick it up yet.

Here is an excellent site that shows css and xml. The thing people need to remember about xml is that it allows you to create your own elements, which is why xml requires css. So you really really really need to know css before you go into xml.

I think if the browsers would get their acts together it would be great for designers. And designers need to learn what is upcoming in the way of future coding for web pages and start learning bit by bit so that they aren't left in the dust of progress leaving them behind.

I guess in a way I have an advantage, I'm learning at a time where the changes are taking place. So I don't really have any bad habits to break along the way. I do know however that i have a great bit to still learn. Which is why even in here, if I am not sure about an answer, I prefer giving a link to the information. I also don't worry about letting you guys know that you need to study css, and not just read about it on the fly to put up a web site. You need to understand so much about css. The box model and how it works, how do you add the left margin padding border content and the right margin padding border content to get the width of the page so that your design doesnt exceed it. And selectors, do you know how many different selector types there are??? Learn it. Dont just read it. Learn it inside out. And don't forget to add the browser thing into it. There are properties that work in all browsers and those that don't work in any of them, even though they are a css1 or css2 spec.

LOL, sorry about the soap box!



bobby -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 10:26:48)

Preach on, sister!

[:D]



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 10:42:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobby

Preach on, sister!

[:D]


roflol!
Hey check that link out above, its done in xml. I was impressed with the site and when I checked the code i was totally impressed with it.



bobby -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 12:24:24)

very nice, indeed... I dig the layout.



caz -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 13:02:20)

Deb is so right about needing to know how css works in order to be ready to take advantage of xml - when the browsers have got their acts together, that is!

For html and xml are not the same thing at all;
quote:

XML specifies neither semantics nor a tag set. In fact XML is really a meta-language for describing markup languages. In other words, XML provides a facility to define tags and the structural relationships between them. Since there's no predefined tag set, there can't be any preconceived semantics. All of the semantics of an XML document will either be defined by the applications that process them or by stylesheets.
My emphasis.

From:What is XML?

If you look at the source code of that particular page you will see how the metatags in it are expanded to include more information than you often see on the web now. I particularly like to see when the content was created, in this case it was in 1998 so things have changed since then in the xml world, so now I know that I need to search for more up to date info. This is a very simple indication of the future power of xml.

We would all be wise to keep an eye both on XML progress and browser implementation - any bets on IE ever getting there in its' current incarnation?[8|]



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 13:21:45)

LOL

Carol, I felt like going "DUH, obviously they aint the same thing"[:D][;)]

For those unable to browse further:

XML = eXtended Markup Language
HTML = HyperText Markup Language

Two totally different langs

[;)]

Dan



bobby -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 13:55:23)

quote:

any bets on IE ever getting there in its' current incarnation?
Yeah, how about never? Since IE isn't going to be updated again before version 7 in Longhorn... some time in the next decade... and by then it won't be the same IE.

[;)]



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 19:00:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Giomanach

LOL

Carol, I felt like going "DUH, obviously they aint the same thing"[:D][;)]

For those unable to browse further:

XML = eXtended Markup Language
HTML = HyperText Markup Language

Two totally different langs

[;)]

Dan

Dan, just so that you have an understanding of things,

xhtml is the pre thingie to xml. This is why its important to read things and learn them as it is meant to be learnt. Not just skiming over things.

html 4. is the last version of html, next up is xhtml next up from that is xml.



caz -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/21/2004 19:30:48)

Well, DUH yourself Dan.
Thanks for picking this up Deb, XHTML ( eXstensible Hypertext Markup Language) is the bridge between html and xml.

quote:

All of the semantics of an XML document will either be defined by the applications that process them or by stylesheets.


XHTML will be run as an application in XML.

I still don't see IE as a contender, but MS are developing their own versions of application based xml. Wouldn't you just know it[:@]



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 7:04:35)

quote:

Thanks for picking this up Deb


No problem caz.

I just feel that Dan needs to read more then what he does. You can't just skim and do in web design. If you do, somewhere along the line you are going to be in trouble big time.

I would love to be bringing in a pay check right now. But...If I rush it, then my reputation as a designer and maybe even future css tutorial writer is going to be null and void.

I can not stress it enough, YOu need to read and study instead of just pulling out a few things that you need here and there. Its going to catch up with you eventually.[;)]



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 7:15:32)

quote:

I just feel that Dan needs to read more then what he does.

I do try to read tutorials, but I have a hard time finding the time to do so. Very busy with personal plans, work (both jobs), and housework[&:]

quote:

I would love to be bringing in a pay check right now.

I have said in the past, if I need a hand I will come to you for help, but at the moment, all I have on my plate is tedious, lengthy ASP programs to write.

quote:

I can not stress it enough, YOu need to read and study instead of just pulling out a few things that you need here and there. Its going to catch up with you eventually.

Hopefully, soon things will quieten down for me, and I will actually sit down and read through several tutorials, buy a few books for what I need (web design wise), and just refresh the brain on everything.

I've been waiting for CSS3 to be made official for while, so I have an excuse to take time out from working so hard to actually say to clients, "The standards of web design are changing, and it is imperative for me to keep up with these standards" and go ahead and learn them.

I need a break, but can't have one as I don't have the time or money to do so......roll on summer (we don't get that till august up here[:D])

Dan



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 7:31:29)

quote:

I've been waiting for CSS3 to be made official for while


You should not hold your breath on this one dan, and the browsers won't be ready for it either when the time approaches.

The part that you had miscorrect above has nothing to do with css studying.

It has to do with basic web design knowledge.

You have a talent for design, BUT you aren't going about it in the correct way. You need to take the time now to do this. I have children and a house to run as well as learning how to do this. You need to learn how to budget your time. And learn what is important to do and not to do as you learn.

I posted a great book in here, I suggest that you look at the name of the book and go to amazon.com to purchase it. Also if you can get your hands on any wrox xhtml books, I suggest that you start looking for them, as well as other books on the subject.

Its all about learning how to discipline yourself to get to what you want to do in life. If that means less time here on outfront, then that is what you do.



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 7:53:36)

I really wish my life was that easy at the mo Deb, I really do.

What I plan on doing is once I have my client who wants their web done last century out of the way, which will leave me with just a simple e-commerce HTML (or XHTML)/CSS site to do, I plan on spliting the time I would normally use to work on web design between web design and studying. I think it's about time I re-read the w3 tuts as well as bought a few books.

The book you posted is only avail on amazon.com, not .co.uk, I'll just have to wait to buy that one then [;)]

Dan



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 8:11:29)

Just taken the quizzes for the basic fo web design (HTML/XHTML/CSS)@ w3schools.com, and my results are:

XHTML: 17/20

HTML: 19/20

CSS: 16/20

So I need to concentrate on my CSS and XHTML, HTML not so bad, but needs work.

Dan



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 8:30:35)

Dan, you need to work on this. You have a client now, but you aren't doing the client justice by not knowing totally what you are doing.

I have had several job offers the past 6 months, however, I know I am not ready yet. To take them would not be the wise thing to do. If I am not going to do my best for the client I won't take on any clients yet.

I want a good reputation, one where people know that I know what I am doing and that I am the best that I can be at it. This is just my opnion on all of this, but I think it could be a good rule of thumb for anyone who is learning web design.[;)]



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 8:46:27)

quote:

You have a client now

Ummmm, four : http://giomanach.com/portfolio.htm [&:]

quote:

but you aren't doing the client justice by not knowing totally what you are doing.

I know that, which is why I want to re-take the tutorials, so I know I AM getting it right, it will take time, and clients will have to understand that it is needed, whether they like it or not. Not how you run a business, but needs must.

When I get everything sorted here etc (Erin, you know what I'm talking about), I *should* have loads of free time to use wisely

Dan



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 8:50:17)

quote:

clients will have to understand that it is needed, whether they like it or not.


This is an incorrect way of doing things. YOU should understand that when you take on a client, and are "making the client thing you know how to do something" You NEED to know how to do it. You don't take breaks from what the client wants to learn how to do it.



dpf -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 9:01:07)

quote:

You don't take breaks from what the client wants to learn how to do it.

well sometimes you do BUT that should be "invisible" to the client. If you go to the doctor with symptoms, he/she may have to spend some time researching. If you go to a lawyer with a problem, he too may have to do some research. At one end of the spectrum, you know nothing about it (and therefore have a problem professionally). At the other end you know everything. More commonly, if you haven't worked with it before, or recently, you have an overall knowledge but have to "brush up". Again, you dont say to the client "oh, I have to learn about that!". You say "ok, I'll get to work on it". A reasonable amount of time to get up to speed is ok but if you have to start from scratch to learn it - you shouldn't be offering the service - yet.



erinatkins -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 9:19:14)

quote:

Dan, you need to work on this. You have a client now, but you aren't doing the client justice by not knowing totally what you are doing.


I think it is possible to learn while you are working with a client. If you have all "the basics down" you can learn how to do something while you are working on it.

quote:

well sometimes you do BUT that should be "invisible" to the client.
It is a given. I would never tell a client I do not know how to do it. I figure out how to do it or find someone who can do it.

If you have a "good team" of people working with you - you can create the website your client wants.

Our company has been around for over 6 years. If I had felt I could not start working until I knew everything - I wouldn't be working now. New things get developed all the time. You need to figure out your strengths & work with them.

I have learned by doing it. If I have a question I ask. I am not afraid to say I am not sure how to do this & look to see how to do it.

I also have no problem responding to an email when I am asked how to do this & share what I know. There is not a stupid question.

I think reading forums, looking at tutorial and buying books can help anyone. But I think the best experience is just doing it.



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 10:20:46)

dpf:
When you take on a client without knowing what you are supposed to know, and do this knowingly, its different from a client asking you to do something while you are doing the page.

As you can see by dan not knowing about the xhtml, xml, he really isn't reading and up to par to where he needs to be.

And there are times you aren't going to know stuff while doing pages, but there is that option to call someone who is familar with this and contract that portion of the web design out to that person.

I just believe that there are not only web standards to uphold, but client and designer standards as well. I hope that this makes sense.



dpf -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 10:27:01)

quote:

When you take on a client without knowing what you are supposed to know, and do this knowingly, its different from a client asking you to do something while you are doing the page.

I agree



tinaalice -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 12:18:33)

quote:

The book you posted is only avail on amazon.com, not .co.uk, I'll just have to wait to buy that one then [;)]

Dan


Wait till it comes to .co.uk ? Get yourself a paypal account so you can pay in $ or £ or just use your cc ..... and buy from the .com I have to tell you books I've wanted have been on both and even with commission at paypal for the currency exchange and the postage it was CHEAPER to get it from the .com belive it or not, and also it arrived much faster... so no need to wait.

Tina



tinaalice -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 12:19:52)

Sorry about the sig line don't know what went wrong there

Tina



DWS -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 12:20:50)

07222004 1113 GMT-6

I can see a real need for designers and coders who have discipline. I was just trying to do research on a new washer and dryer at Sears. My dad looked up the Consumer Reports Best Buy - which was a Kenmore. I went to Kenmore and guess what - you cant search by model number, and you cant do so at Sears either.

A site that consumers are going to frequent needs to think in terms of how a customer will search. If you only have a model number, that is what youre gonig to search by. I like the idea of the British site using lots of descriptive information because that is what its going to take to turn this giant jumble of information called the web into something much more useful.

Having said that I can already see companies having problems with site redesigns. They dont want to use CSS because that one customer who never purchases anything online might want to look at their site and they are still using Win95! They think CSS is too new agey. I dont think most companies have a clue about XML nor the people they employ. And as for actually putting in descriptive meta information - oh my - can we say - IMPOSSIBILITIY and MONEY (as in costing them).

What I see is this: those who choose to do so will. Those who dont - wont. That means - you have to give a damn in the first place, you have to care about what you are creating.

Im ranting.....

Wade



c1sissy -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 12:36:34)

Hi Wade,
Welcome, and also thank you for your rant as it was a good one.

You made a few excellent points in your rant [;)]

Designers and coders do need discipline, which is a point that i was trying to make above to Dan (not picking on you dan, but you know that [;)])

the one thing that many companies need to take into consideration is their target audience. I don't think that companies realize that this is important. CSS has been around since 1996 I believe. I know that there has been discussions before about who you consider browser wise when creating a site, and I know that is a sometimes interesting discussion. I'm sure that you would find a few in here someplace [;)]

You are correct, those who do will and those who don't wont.

thanks for participating!



Giomanach -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 12:53:39)

quote:

Wait till it comes to .co.uk ?

Nope, I have other plans

Dan



dpf -> RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? (7/22/2004 13:00:18)

quote:

Having said that I can already see companies having problems with site redesigns. They dont want to use CSS because that one customer who never purchases anything online might want to look at their site and they are still using Win95! They think CSS is too new agey. I dont think most companies have a clue about XML nor the people they employ

I certainly agree with your post about Sears not allowing search by model # and the need to view the page from users point of view. however, dont entirely agree with the part above. First of all, not using something (css for example) because potential customers dont have it isnt inherently a bad thing!! its a smart busines move. I also dont think compn=anies view it as too "edgy" the issue for a long time has been browser compatability. When i first started in 1999, everyone advised me dont use css - as time goes on, it becomes available more and more but the avoidance was for good reason. I also wouldnt generalize that companies (and their staff) are clueless about xml - some of the largest companies employ some pretty savvy people and are indeed creating some of the most leading edge sites - they do have the do-ra-me!



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