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caz
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From: Somewhere south of Chester, UK
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/21/2004 5:58:08
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I wonder if XML will have changed the way websites are built on a broad scale
I am not too sure about the nuts and bolts of XML Bobby, but already the UK open government initiative is working with the W3C in ensuring that the application of the metadata elements will be compliant for the future. This is building standards for websites to which their contractors and content providers must adhere.
The UK booktrade are already using XML in their "Onix" application which allows for the 'semantic web' approach in the use of metadata eg. in addition to title= and author=, there are tags for edition, revision, publisher, place of publication. Significantly the keyword area is becoming more useful for searching in that additions are including classification to known systems such as Library of Congress Subject Headings, Dewey,UDC and others. Published thesaurii, ontologies, taxonomies etc are being used as content descriptors too.
The move to the semantic web will impose a discipline on both designers and content providers which has been lacking and is what makes todays' SE's appear like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut . In future there will be much more precision rather than absolute recall in search results because there will be many more choices available to construct a precise search enquiry.
Of course this also means search engines have to be more intelligent to utilise all this extra power and also more user friendly in order that the user can benefit.
I think that it is all very exiting for the future, but I am also relieved to see that CSS is playing a big part in all this development - phew
Here finishes the whirlwind tour of information retrieval
Cheers
Carol
< Message edited by caz -- 7/22/2004 14:19:16 >
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c1sissy
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/21/2004 8:48:53
I have not glanced at the css3 recomendations yet, but in my readings some of the things are mentioned. There is even going to be a difference in how you display lists so that they can be used more easily for doing navigations.
xml, is the next thing that I am going to learn. I have one book sitting on my shelf next to the computer on xml, but refues to pick it up yet.
Here is an excellent site that shows css and xml. The thing people need to remember about xml is that it allows you to create your own elements, which is why xml requires css. So you really really really need to know css before you go into xml.
I think if the browsers would get their acts together it would be great for designers. And designers need to learn what is upcoming in the way of future coding for web pages and start learning bit by bit so that they aren't left in the dust of progress leaving them behind.
I guess in a way I have an advantage, I'm learning at a time where the changes are taking place. So I don't really have any bad habits to break along the way. I do know however that i have a great bit to still learn. Which is why even in here, if I am not sure about an answer, I prefer giving a link to the information. I also don't worry about letting you guys know that you need to study css, and not just read about it on the fly to put up a web site. You need to understand so much about css. The box model and how it works, how do you add the left margin padding border content and the right margin padding border content to get the width of the page so that your design doesnt exceed it. And selectors, do you know how many different selector types there are??? Learn it. Dont just read it. Learn it inside out. And don't forget to add the browser thing into it. There are properties that work in all browsers and those that don't work in any of them, even though they are a css1 or css2 spec.
LOL, sorry about the soap box!
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
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Giomanach
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From: England
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 7:15:32
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I just feel that Dan needs to read more then what he does.
I do try to read tutorials, but I have a hard time finding the time to do so. Very busy with personal plans, work (both jobs), and housework
quote:
I would love to be bringing in a pay check right now.
I have said in the past, if I need a hand I will come to you for help, but at the moment, all I have on my plate is tedious, lengthy ASP programs to write.
quote:
I can not stress it enough, YOu need to read and study instead of just pulling out a few things that you need here and there. Its going to catch up with you eventually.
Hopefully, soon things will quieten down for me, and I will actually sit down and read through several tutorials, buy a few books for what I need (web design wise), and just refresh the brain on everything.
I've been waiting for CSS3 to be made official for while, so I have an excuse to take time out from working so hard to actually say to clients, "The standards of web design are changing, and it is imperative for me to keep up with these standards" and go ahead and learn them.
I need a break, but can't have one as I don't have the time or money to do so......roll on summer (we don't get that till august up here)
Dan
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c1sissy
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From: NJ
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 7:31:29
quote:
I've been waiting for CSS3 to be made official for while
You should not hold your breath on this one dan, and the browsers won't be ready for it either when the time approaches.
The part that you had miscorrect above has nothing to do with css studying.
It has to do with basic web design knowledge.
You have a talent for design, BUT you aren't going about it in the correct way. You need to take the time now to do this. I have children and a house to run as well as learning how to do this. You need to learn how to budget your time. And learn what is important to do and not to do as you learn.
I posted a great book in here, I suggest that you look at the name of the book and go to amazon.com to purchase it. Also if you can get your hands on any wrox xhtml books, I suggest that you start looking for them, as well as other books on the subject.
Its all about learning how to discipline yourself to get to what you want to do in life. If that means less time here on outfront, then that is what you do.
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/
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Giomanach
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 8:11:29
Just taken the quizzes for the basic fo web design (HTML/XHTML/CSS)@ w3schools.com, and my results are:
XHTML: 17/20
HTML: 19/20
CSS: 16/20
So I need to concentrate on my CSS and XHTML, HTML not so bad, but needs work.
Dan
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c1sissy
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 8:50:17
quote:
clients will have to understand that it is needed, whether they like it or not.
This is an incorrect way of doing things. YOU should understand that when you take on a client, and are "making the client thing you know how to do something" You NEED to know how to do it. You don't take breaks from what the client wants to learn how to do it.
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/
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dpf
Posts: 7121
Joined: 11/12/2003
From: India-napolis
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 9:01:07
quote:
You don't take breaks from what the client wants to learn how to do it.
well sometimes you do BUT that should be "invisible" to the client. If you go to the doctor with symptoms, he/she may have to spend some time researching. If you go to a lawyer with a problem, he too may have to do some research. At one end of the spectrum, you know nothing about it (and therefore have a problem professionally). At the other end you know everything. More commonly, if you haven't worked with it before, or recently, you have an overall knowledge but have to "brush up". Again, you dont say to the client "oh, I have to learn about that!". You say "ok, I'll get to work on it". A reasonable amount of time to get up to speed is ok but if you have to start from scratch to learn it - you shouldn't be offering the service - yet.
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erinatkins
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From: Mechanicsville VA USA
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 9:19:14
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Dan, you need to work on this. You have a client now, but you aren't doing the client justice by not knowing totally what you are doing.
I think it is possible to learn while you are working with a client. If you have all "the basics down" you can learn how to do something while you are working on it.
quote:
well sometimes you do BUT that should be "invisible" to the client. It is a given. I would never tell a client I do not know how to do it. I figure out how to do it or find someone who can do it.
If you have a "good team" of people working with you - you can create the website your client wants.
Our company has been around for over 6 years. If I had felt I could not start working until I knew everything - I wouldn't be working now. New things get developed all the time. You need to figure out your strengths & work with them.
I have learned by doing it. If I have a question I ask. I am not afraid to say I am not sure how to do this & look to see how to do it.
I also have no problem responding to an email when I am asked how to do this & share what I know. There is not a stupid question.
I think reading forums, looking at tutorial and buying books can help anyone. But I think the best experience is just doing it.
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c1sissy
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 10:20:46
dpf:
When you take on a client without knowing what you are supposed to know, and do this knowingly, its different from a client asking you to do something while you are doing the page.
As you can see by dan not knowing about the xhtml, xml, he really isn't reading and up to par to where he needs to be.
And there are times you aren't going to know stuff while doing pages, but there is that option to call someone who is familar with this and contract that portion of the web design out to that person.
I just believe that there are not only web standards to uphold, but client and designer standards as well. I hope that this makes sense.
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Deb-aka-c4Ksissy
high panjandurum and alpha female of the silverback tribe
As decreed by Jesper 5-24-2003.
The only stupid question is... the one that is never asked!!
http://directory.css-styling.com
http://fmsforum.com
http://positioniseverything.net/
http://www.tanfa.co.uk/
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dpf
Posts: 7121
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From: India-napolis
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 10:27:01
quote:
When you take on a client without knowing what you are supposed to know, and do this knowingly, its different from a client asking you to do something while you are doing the page.
I agree
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tinaalice
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From: Stockport, Cheshire. UK
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 12:19:52
Sorry about the sig line don't know what went wrong there
Tina
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DWS
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From: Ok USA
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 12:20:50
07222004 1113 GMT-6
I can see a real need for designers and coders who have discipline. I was just trying to do research on a new washer and dryer at Sears. My dad looked up the Consumer Reports Best Buy - which was a Kenmore. I went to Kenmore and guess what - you cant search by model number, and you cant do so at Sears either.
A site that consumers are going to frequent needs to think in terms of how a customer will search. If you only have a model number, that is what youre gonig to search by. I like the idea of the British site using lots of descriptive information because that is what its going to take to turn this giant jumble of information called the web into something much more useful.
Having said that I can already see companies having problems with site redesigns. They dont want to use CSS because that one customer who never purchases anything online might want to look at their site and they are still using Win95! They think CSS is too new agey. I dont think most companies have a clue about XML nor the people they employ. And as for actually putting in descriptive meta information - oh my - can we say - IMPOSSIBILITIY and MONEY (as in costing them).
What I see is this: those who choose to do so will. Those who dont - wont. That means - you have to give a damn in the first place, you have to care about what you are creating.
Im ranting.....
Wade
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Giomanach
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 12:53:39
quote:
Wait till it comes to .co.uk ?
Nope, I have other plans
Dan
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dpf
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RE: Deb - CSS3 yet? - 7/22/2004 13:00:18
quote:
Having said that I can already see companies having problems with site redesigns. They dont want to use CSS because that one customer who never purchases anything online might want to look at their site and they are still using Win95! They think CSS is too new agey. I dont think most companies have a clue about XML nor the people they employ
I certainly agree with your post about Sears not allowing search by model # and the need to view the page from users point of view. however, dont entirely agree with the part above. First of all, not using something (css for example) because potential customers dont have it isnt inherently a bad thing!! its a smart busines move. I also dont think compn=anies view it as too "edgy" the issue for a long time has been browser compatability. When i first started in 1999, everyone advised me dont use css - as time goes on, it becomes available more and more but the avoidance was for good reason. I also wouldnt generalize that companies (and their staff) are clueless about xml - some of the largest companies employ some pretty savvy people and are indeed creating some of the most leading edge sites - they do have the do-ra-me!
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