Tables are driving me crazy, please help (Full Version)

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jwg1800 -> Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/24/2004 23:16:27)

Does anyone have any helpful advice on using table. Once I get my tables in place and start inserting text or images it seems like all the other tables get messed up. Is there some setting or something that I can choose when I first insert tables so that all my other tables won't go crazy because I change something in another table? Does this make sense. Obviously I'm a newbie, please help.

John



Andy from Somerset -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 4:31:58)

Hello and welcome to Outfront

Do you have a URL we can look at? If not, I would check the widths of your tables to make sure they all add up to 100% (if you are using percentages) or to the total size of the main table (if using pixels).

Also check the size of the image you are placing in the table to make sure it doesn't exceed the size of the table you are trying to put it in.

Andy



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 9:52:59)

quote:

all the other tables get messed up

I agree with Andy and further, the quote above suggests multiple tables. If using a structure that complex (multiple and/or nested tables) it is sometimes advantageous to sketch on a piece of paper and write in cell sizes and images sizes to see if it makes sense and "fits".



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 9:57:47)

one more thing - w/out a url we cannot see but just guessing, one thing newbies sometimes dont understand about tables is that the number of cells/columns should match in each row or the get "messed up. If you need to deviate, the cellspan and rowspan tags are used for that purpose. for example, if you first row has 3 cells w/ @ 1/3rd of the page but in your second row, you need one wide cell 2/3rd of page and then one cell 1/3, the first cell would be <td colspan="2"> which indicates that this cell will "span" accross 2 columns or cells. Take a read at the tables tutorials above



Larry M. -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 12:23:22)

<<If you need to deviate, the cellspan and rowspan tags are used for that purpose>>

Dan,

This is pretty interesting. I knew this: <<the number of cells/columns should match in each row or the get "messed up>> but the matter of cellspan and rowspan is new to me.

Want to make sure I'm on the right track here, so, for example: Take one unnested table divided into two rows with the top row divided equally into three cells - the bottom row is open or 100% of the table. Then the question: without nesting, can you, using cellspan and row span on the lower open row, insert "unmatching" (to the top row cell) columns?

Hope I've communicated my question with some marginal semblance of coherence.



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 13:05:09)

Larry: I think you'v got it. colspan and rowspan often do the job and alleviate the need for nesting...
<table>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<!--thats your first row with 3 cells of columns, right? so you want the next row to have a single cell -spanning all 3 columns-->
<tr><td colspan="3"></td></tr> that is one row that "spans" the 3 columns and doesnt throw the whole thing off - you can span any number of the columns.

the rowspan span attribute works in reverse....lets say you want 3 cells on the left to be on top of each other, i.e. on seperate rows but you want the space on the right to be a solid block ..sort of a simple nav structure with space on the right to give your message- got it? so it looks like this:
<table>
<tr> (first row)
<td></td> first cell
<td rowspan="3"></td></tr> (end first row)
<tr>(2nd row)
<td></td>
</tr> ( end 2nd row....no second cell defined because the rowspan is "falling down into that space)
<tr>(3rd row)
<td></td>
</tr> ( end 3rd row)
</table>

try it in notepad..fp does has a colspan/rowspan somewhere but i forget where.



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 13:16:54)

quote:

cellspan and rowspan tags

and i goofed there.its colspan (short for column spanning) and not cellspan...hey its sunday, gimmea break..lol



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 13:52:05)

thank you for these suggestions. I don't have the webpage up to show you, sorry. I'm positive that my images are not bigger than the cell properties that I've set. I don't understand the cellspan and rowspan thing though and I think that will help me. If I have a table with 6 columns and 1 row and I type some test in one of the columns then every column increases in size, that's what's giving me trouble.

John



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 16:44:34)

is your problem that as you type into the one cell and the text goes "down" or vertically, then the other cells go down and you dont want that..go down as opposed to horizontally?



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/25/2004 21:15:36)

Dan,

Yes when I type in one cell, I'm wanting the other cells to stay the same. Is there a way to achieve that?

John



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/26/2004 17:33:11) 

<htmL><head><title>use of span..not spam..in 

tables</title></head>
<body>
<table border="1">
<tr>
<td>1</td>
<td>2</td>
<td>3</td>
<td>4</td>
<td>5</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td rowspan="3">rowspan=3</td>
<td>6</td>
<td colspan="2">colspan=2</td>

<td rowspan="2">rowspam=2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="3">colspan=3</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="4">colspan=4</td>
</tr>



</table></body></html>


jwg and Larry
copy paste this code into notepad..name it something.html and then view through browser to see how span attributes give total flexibility with tables.

here is what it look like:

[image]local://upfiles/9414/4A8BF38AE0C84CDC9DE03AA16A655207.jpg[/image]



_gail -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/26/2004 20:07:59)

quote:

Once I get my tables in place and start inserting text or images it seems like all the other tables get messed up. Is there some setting or something that I can choose


If you're using FrontPage, become familar with the Table and Cells Properties dialog boxes. You bring them up by right-clicking in a table or cell.

There are some excellent, step-by-step tutorials here at Outfront about tables. They should help:

http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/fp_techniques/tables_intro.htm

http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/fp_techniques/tables1.htm

A couple of things that I have been told, and use. (note: I use FrontPage exclusively. I do not type my own code).

First, it is better to use stacked tables (one table on top of one another) whenever you can. Nested tables (one table inside of another) should be used very sparingly.

Second, when you create colums within a table, set their alignment. Generally, I set the vertical alignment of each cell to TOP. To do this in FrontPage, right-click within a cell, select Cell Properties, and set the desired alignment. You will have lots more control over where text and images flow within a table when you set their properties.

Third, never set the heigth of a table. It causes problems. Also, if you drag a column line in "Normal" view, it can change the width and and height. And you don't want to set the heigth, as I mentioned earlier. You're better using the Tables Properties dialog box to make changes.

gail



_gail -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/26/2004 20:11:12)

One other thing.

If you right-click an image after it is inserted into a web page, you can set its properties too. This helps control the placement of an image in surrounding text.

gail



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/26/2004 21:11:45)

Dan,

Thank you for all your help. I did what you said for the tables. I brought it up and that's interesting. By that example are you saying that I can make a table any size I want and keep it that way?

Also, gail thank you for that useful advice.

John



gskywalkers -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 2:36:39)

quote:

Third, never set the heigth of a table. It causes problems.


Although I agree with this statement when using FP 2002 and prior versions, FP2003 may have overcome this problem as the new layout tables used in 2003 have both width and height attributes on every table and cell you create and it does this whether you want the height attribute or not. I have been working with the layout tables for some time now and have found a few small glitches when looking at them in Netscape or Mozilla but overall, they seem to work well with the height attributes.



_gail -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 11:53:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gskywalkers

quote:

Third, never set the heigth of a table. It causes problems.


Although I agree with this statement when using FP 2002 and prior versions, FP2003 may have overcome this problem as the new layout tables used in 2003 have both width and height attributes on every table and cell you create and it does this whether you want the height attribute or not. I have been working with the layout tables for some time now and have found a few small glitches when looking at them in Netscape or Mozilla but overall, they seem to work well with the height attributes.



Point well taken. I should have pointed out that I was using FrontPage 2002.

However, could you clarify a few points you made. First, you say may have overcome this.... Do you mean that it's not for sure?

And what do you mean by this?

quote:

in 2003 have both width and height attributes on every table and cell you create and it does this whether you want the height attribute or not.


I never use the height attribute, and I'm certainly not saying there is any virtue in the fact that I do not. But I was told to avoid them by people far more knowledgeble than I because they caused problems. If using the height attribute is no longer a problem as you point out, then I suppose there is no need for concern.

Still, if the height is being set arbitrarily by FrontPage, no matter what the version, and a person is having problems as the original poster pointed out, one place to check, imho, is the heigth attributes.

gail



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 13:32:12)

quote:

Still, if the height is being set arbitrarily by FrontPage, no matter what the version, and a person is having problems as the original poster pointed out, one place to check, imho, is the heigth attributes.

I think the poster's problem derives from the basic fact that html will expad a cell to fit the content. i assume something like he has text to add in the left cell and fixed images in the two right ones..but as he inputs more text, the cell expands downward but does so for the entire row. the solution is either rowspan as I suggested or stop his text at a point, start a new row and then input remaining text - letting the other cells be blank.



gskywalkers -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 16:03:50)

quote:

However, could you clarify a few points you made. First, you say may have overcome this.... Do you mean that it's not for sure?

And what do you mean by this?

quote:

in 2003 have both width and height attributes on every table and cell you create and it does this whether you want the height attribute or not.


I say "may have" because I have yet to hear of anyone who has had a problem with the FP2003 layout tables with regard to the height attribute being the specific cause of the problem. There are some cross browser problems but I don't think anything will fix that.

If you will go to the following URL, I have put up an image of the layout table front page 2003 creates and the code that it generates for the table.

http://www.gskywalkers.com/layout/tables5.htm

The first line of code is as follows:
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="760" height="405">

So you can see that this is not a choice to add the height attribute as you did with the standard tables used in FP2002 and prior. FP 2003 Layout Tables just automatically puts both the width and height attributes into the code.

The FP2003 layout tables are very different from the standard FP2002 tables. However, the standard table features are included in FP2003 and can be used in conjunction with the layout tables.

More on this here



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 16:15:29)

note that it also uses colspan attribute..<smile>



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 18:09:30)

I feel a little lost with all of this stuff. Well I upgraded to fp 2003, I haven't noticed any differences yet, but that's probably because I didn't know much about FP in the first place.

Another question that might help solve some of my problems. How do you know weather to insert a table within a table or just insert more rows or columns?

John



Larry M. -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 18:41:05)

<<How do you know weather to insert a table within a table or just insert more rows or columns>>

John,

Inserting more columns in a table means their boundaries must conform to the boundaries already established in the table by other columns. A table within a table (nested table) has the advantage of allowing the designer to establish new column boundaries but it has the disadvantage of slower loading because the server must "look" at the parent table first.

As Gail pointed out it's best to "stack" rather than "nest" tables. I haven't but need to experiment with Table Layouts per gskywalkers and cell attributes contributed by Dan. I'm using FrontPage 2003 and still guilty of thinking '02. Maybe more design flexibility in this area - need to find out.



_gail -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 18:50:59)

quote:

I feel a little lost with all of this stuff.


John,

I highly recommend you read the tutorials I suggested above. Sure they were written about FP 2002 and below, but many of the basic principles remain the same.

There are many skill levels represented by the very fine people in the Outfront Forums, so it can get confusing at times. Believe me, I speak from experience. The tutorials, some of which are illustrated, can help a lot and give you a firm foundation on which to build.

gail



_gail -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 18:53:53)

quote:

If you will go to the following URL, I have put up an image of the layout table front page 2003 creates and the code that it generates for the table.

http://www.gskywalkers.com/layout/tables5.htm


Very interesting! Thanks so very much for taking time to do the illustration!

gail



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 19:45:34)

thanks gail, I'll get on those tutorials

John



dpf -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 19:59:02)

John
Lets make this a little simpler. The very first thing you should do in deciding what your needs are relative to tables is to draw it on paper- not a rough/early stage sketch but a finalized picture. Im not saying drawn to scale like an engineering drawing but drawn rather proportionally. Look at this quote from Larry:
quote:

Inserting more columns in a table means their boundaries must conform to the boundaries already established in the table by other columns
. What is he saying? well, he is saying that if your first row has 4 cells of equal size, that is what the browser (and fp) expect in each subsequent row. you have to conform to that. If not, gails point is simply end your first table with a single row and then start another - with say 3 rows,

Lets follow this a little further. suppose your first row need 4 rows of equal size (25% @). If your 2nd row needs 3 cells of equal size (33%@) you have a problem making it conform so therefore its best to end that first table and start a new one. On the other hand, what if your second row only needs 3 cells but you want one to be 50% and the other 2 25%@. draw that out and see what it looks like. thats where my suggestion of cellspan comes in handy. what you are really "conforming to" is the 25% 25% 25% 25% layout..which you can proportionally adapt to any combo of 25% and 50%.

Go read the tutorials and if they have exercises, try them.



_gail -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 20:30:49)

quote:

The very first thing you should do in deciding what your needs are relative to tables is to draw it on paper- not a rough/early stage sketch but a finalized picture.



Here you go:

http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/design/layout.htm

gail



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/27/2004 20:55:37)

Okay, guys the tutorials are helping and I'm starting to pick this up, understanding that the cells have to conform to each other. About starting a new table if I want to do something different: several times I've started a new table but I have trouble placing it where I want it to go. I know go to the table properties and adjust, even when I do that, sometimes it doesn't work.

Earlier, I wanted a table to be aligned on the left, so I went to the properties and I set it to align to the left and then clicked okay. But nothing changed, so I went back to the properties and it was as if I never changed the alignment, I tried several times.

I have another question about the need for a table to put a search box on my site, should I ask it in this thread or start a new one?

Thank you for your pateince with me

John



Larry M. -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/28/2004 5:47:16)

<<I wanted a table to be aligned on the left, so I went to the properties and I set it to align to the left and then clicked okay. But nothing changed, so I went back to the properties and it was as if I never changed the alignment, I tried several times>>

John,

A table can't move if its width is set to 100%, which I suspect is the case here.

Experiment with: >>Table >>Insert Table >>Specify Width = 75% >>OK. Then >>Table >>Table Properties >>Alignment = Right, Left, Center >>OK. Notice that the table will follow these justification commands.



Larry M. -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/28/2004 6:10:04)

<<I have another question about the need for a table to put a search box on my site, should I ask it in this thread or start a new one? >>

John,

Let's keep going here. Plenty of continuing interest among Forum Members on this thread, so, as the expression goes, help is on the way.

I work in FrontPage exclusively and table everything. I don't expect general agreement among Outfront Forum Members on this point, but I think of tables (and cells,rows within tables) as "anchors" for design text/graphics toward the end that they will display with more cross-browser consistency.

So, yes I recommend you table your search box. You can see an example (actually search engine) here which has been tabled within a customized CSS FP template.

Your questions are all good ones, so keep 'em coming.



jwg1800 -> RE: Tables are driving me crazy, please help (7/28/2004 7:35:36)

Larry,

Thank you, I'll keep the questions coming. As to your advice about the size of the table that I was trying to move, I didn't change the % but I did change the pixel width, I had it set at 200 pixels. How do you know to specify with a % or with pixels.

Here's my question about the search box. I want to put a search box on my site like the one at www.candleandmatch.com

I want to put it in my topmost table like they have theirs and off to the right. I've found that I can't just put a table in that position of the table and when I insert the search box the height of the table increases dramatically even after I take out the the "reset" and "submit" buttons and resize the form.

You guys have been great,

thank you,

John



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