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JacieClaeys -> Take a Look Please (8/13/2004 16:01:55)

Hi,

I got so inspired by Dan's purple passion in quandry's site that I am redesigning my site.

http://www.nrgsaver.com/Temp/default.htm

I need to know if the page needs to be centered instead of left?

Would it be better in CSS instead of a table?

I know nothing about CSS but will learn it if it would be better set up that way.

Any suggestions will be much appreciated.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/13/2004 16:29:59)

Hi.

quote:

I need to know if the page needs to be centered instead of left?

Personally, centred. Most sites suit that alignment.

As for the table, you could use CSS to format it if you like. I'm not too sure about the menus that appear onmouseover, I'd consider not using them. Just for accessibilities sake.

CSS will allow for more effective modification of the site as a whole, as well as providing you with some good effects, such as when you hover over a hyperlink.

There are quite a few things you can improve on, but I'll see what the others have to say.

Regards,



Andy from Somerset -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/13/2004 18:29:17)

quote:

I need to know if the page needs to be centered instead of left?


Definitely centred in my opinion.
I would also reduce the font size of the menu a little and the graphic at the top looks very bare (I would reduce the height by about a third and add some more graphics - maybe in a similar or complementry tint to the background)

Andy



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/13/2004 20:22:27)

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have centered the page now and added a light purple background to the page.

I am having a specific problem in that I worked on this page at home last night on a 21" LCD screen and today at work on a 19" regular monitor the color was totally different. I mean TOTALLY. So I rebuilt today so I think the colors are what most people see. But when I left the office the page was a bit off . The logo didn't exactly line up with the menu. But when I got home it looked OK on the LCD from a position stand point but the color is much lighter (which is OK.)

I agree about the font size on the menu. I will take it down and see how that looks.

Mark....what would I use instead of the menus on the mouse over? What would be a good alternative with so many items? I have seen you talk about the hover but I guess I don't really understand how that works instead. I will play with it some more.

Andy, I love the idea of some graphics on the logo. I will try some bulbs that sort of blend and see what that does. I just couldn't think of anything to put there until you suggested it.

Thanks and check back for the update please. I am really excited about doing something new.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/14/2004 11:33:26)

With regards to a menu, you could try:

Item 1
- Sub 1
- Sub 2
- Sub 3
Item 2
- Sub 1
Item 3
Item 4

That might work, if you look at www.thebdbl.org.uk I've used that formula.

With regards to hover colours etc. you do that with CSS. If you want to learn a bit more, try www.w3schools.com. Basically all you need is a:hover{} with a colour. Obviously there's more to the CSS, but I'm just demonstrating how a simple thing can improve the look of a site. HTH.



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/14/2004 13:13:57)

Thanks Mark. I will spend some time learning and looking at the sites you sent. It is really something I would like to know.

Also, does doing a hover on the menu change how the spiders are able to crawl your site? Does it make it harder for them or no difference at all?

I am just about finished adding graphics to the logo and will be putting it up in about an hour or so.

Thanks for all the help guys.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/14/2004 13:25:08)

quote:

Also, does doing a hover on the menu change how the spiders are able to crawl your site? Does it make it harder for them or no difference at all?

A 'hover' effect on links simply means that when a user puts their mouse over a hyperlink it changes colour. If you take a look on this site, the links change to a different blue colour. As you're not actually modifying links, and spiders will work on source code, this isn't a problem.

As an example, modify your code so it reads: 

<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<title>New Page 1</title>
<meta name="Microsoft Border" content="b">
<style type="text/css">
a:hover {
 color: #CC3300;
 text-decoration: underline;
}
</style>
</head>

Save the template and upload it. Do you now see that when you put your mouse over the links they're red and underlined?

With regards to your menu, removing the JavaScript, I think you're using, will improve navigation and accessibility to your site.



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/14/2004 15:37:22)

Hi Mark,

I looked at the B&D site and I see what you mean. I am going to try it. However, I have over 60 pages in my site. Many of my menu titles have sub and sub-sub catagorys. My problem and the reason I went to the java menu is space. I will probably have room on the home page because it is so long but many of the product pages aren't that long and I have to give them a way to navigate inside the store. If I want a consistent look throughout it becomes a problem. I have thought about sub-pages for the different catagorys but am afraid it would entail too much clicking for my customers.
I don't like the java script menu simply because it is not crawler friendly. But it sure is a problem-fixer when it comes to space.
If you want to look at my current sites menu and see how many pages there are it is at:

http://www.nrgsaver.com

I am still going to see what I can do with the hover. Maybe I can work it out.

Many thanks.
Any suggestions?



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/14/2004 21:25:51)

Hi,
I have made a template for my product pages using the "hover" on the links.

http://www.nrgsaver.com/Temp/template.htm

I really like it but I only have 12 pages linked so far and I just counted my pages....81 in all. I can see that I will never get them to all fit down the left column. The only alternative I can see would be sub-pages unless someone has an alternative suggestion.

I'm sure there must be some way to "skin this cat" I just don't know what it is.

PS: Is the background toooooo flashy?



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 7:20:36)

OK, how about... having the sub-pages BUT have a site map as well? That way you can have all the links in one place for eager customers wanting a specific topic. It might be just me, but the gradient fill of your header is a tad distracting? Background is a bit flashy, but not overly. Personal preference I guess!



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 12:37:10)

Hi,
That part is a slam dunk for me. I have always had a "table of contents". That link works on the current hover menu and takes you to a page with all the products with description and links.

In addition I have a Catalog page ( Browse Catalog) with links to all pages and pictures of each bulb. Also,I have a link at the bottom of every page that will return them to the catalog page.

http://www.nrgsaver.com/Temp/template.htm

You almost have to have these alternate nav methods because not everyone has java script enabled. In fact, I'm amazed at how many don't have it enabled but my stats tell me it is true.

Here are the big questions?

I think I can get all the pages listed(linked) on the Home page(because it is so long). What about a shorter menu on the product pages that took them to sub-pages. That way they would have 4 alternatives for accessing all pages. The Home Page, Table of Contents, Catalog Store or sub-pages. And they would all be listed in the menu(except the Home page menu which would link all pages directly).

The 2 questions in my mind are...

Would all pages listed on Home page be too daunting(or busy)?

Would it be too confusing to change the nav style on the inside pages to include the sub-pages which would give me about 15 links and easily fit on all the product pages?

I will redo the template page showing just what I would have on the menu and we could see how it looks.

After 5 years of having this web site I still haven't found a perfect solution to the navigation question. I thought I had it with the java menu until I realized not everyone has java enabled and the crawlers dont use it.

I can't really see the gradient in the header very well on this monitor. It is a LCD and very light. I will have to wait until I get to the office tomorrow to look at it. I used that gradient because it looks like a light shining down (at least on my monitor it does) and seemed appropriate to the subject. Maybe not....I will have to take another look.

Thanks for all the help. I am going to find a nav solution yet.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 14:17:31)

Hey, solution:

Have links on the home page to all of the main categories:

Home (Link)
Main 1 (Link)
Main 2 (Link)
Main 3 (Link)
...

Upon clicking a main category, expand the category, thus:

Home (Link)
Main 1 (Non Link)
Sub 1 (Link)
Sub 2 (Link)
Sub 3 (Link)
Main 2 (Link)
Main 3 (Link)

And continue, so when a section is entered, the user can select a product from there. It's like a hierarchical menu in JavaScript, without the Javascript. It would mean though, that a separate template would be used for each section.

Personally, all the links on one page would be inappropriate. As you said a TOC or site map will help users that need to find a specific product quickly. Breaking it down into categories may even help marketability of products, as people may view several products when browsing.

I understand the method between the graphic. It just needs 'polishing' a bit.

Regards,

Mark



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 17:02:06)

Hey

You mean like this....

http://www.nrgsaver.com/Temp/template_2.htm

This menu would be on ALL pages. I will build submenu pages for the incandescents, reflectors,decorative etc.

I could actually do away with the Browse Catalog page as I will put pictures on all the sub menu pages. I can put some good descriptive copy on the sub menu pages which would give me better rankings and give the customer a chance to see everything in that catagory as you say.

I had to lock the menu into position because even tho I have a nested table for the menu and a nested table for the items it was adding a space at the top of the menu when I put in the big cell at the top of the items(ie.Super Premium Krypton)

But I like the way it looks now if that won't hurt anything.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 17:19:18)

Looks good, just one thing though... why use applets? You can make the colours change using CSS. If you look at this site http://www.alistapart.com/ notice the horizontal navigation bar? When you rollover a link it changes the background colour, pure CSS.



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 18:21:33)

LOL Because I don't know enough about CSS yet. I just started reading the site you sent me yesterday. Looks like first I might even have to learn html. hahaha. I know a little but FP is not only idiot proof for someone like me but it also makes idiots out of us. I know just enough about html to fix something in the code if it needs it.

I am going to need some time to learn it all. Some of the CSS instruction was like reading Greek. My greatest incentive will be so that I can send all my pages up using FTP and never have to send another page up FP publish. I found that sometimes (not always) publishing hovers is the same as publishing forms. They just don't work with FTP. I despise FP publish. It takes too long with this many pages and I lose too much control.

I am just going to have learn CSS a little slower between running a business and doing web pages and every once in a while LIVING like normal people do.

I realized after what I read on CSS that I could do all those hover buttons in a few keystrokes instead of one at a time. I just didn't know enough to do it the easy way.

Now that I have a general format for the new site I can play around with doing it in CSS. I have to have a project in order to learn something. I can't just read about it and then know it. I have to apply it to something.

I was afraid if I didn't get this going you would fink out on me and I wouldn't get all the wonderful benefits of your experience.

Now I have a direction to go in.

Can't thank you enough.
Respectfully,



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 18:34:06)

quote:

I am going to need some time to learn it all. Some of the CSS instruction was like reading Greek. My greatest incentive will be so that I can send all my pages up using FTP and never have to send another page up FP publish. I found that sometimes (not always) publishing hovers is the same as publishing forms. They just don't work with FTP. I despise FP publish. It takes too long with this many pages and I lose too much control.

Hallelujah! FTP is the proper way IMO! CSS is quite difficult to get to grips with, but once you get over the hurdle it's fine. Same with HTML, the fact you can edit a bit of code manually is good.

quote:

Now that I have a general format for the new site I can play around with doing it in CSS. I have to have a project in order to learn something. I can't just read about it and then know it. I have to apply it to something.

A kinesthetic learner, the best way! I'm glad you're doing well, keep up with it. If you need any more help just post again, or PM me. I'm always welcome to help you. I have another client who is much like you, a 'doer' who likes the hands-on approach.

quote:

I am just going to have learn CSS a little slower between running a business and doing web pages and every once in a while LIVING like normal people do.

Exactly, excellent comment. Take it one step at a time. Your knowledge is definitely broader than it was before.

Regards,



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/15/2004 18:48:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: markhawker


Exactly, excellent comment. Take it one step at a time. Your knowledge is definitely broader than it was before.

Thanks to you, I might add.

I will give you a holler when I'm asp deep in alligators.

Mucho gracias.



TominFL -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 13:07:11)

I did and the site looks great. But the links on the left, many didn't work for me.



dpf -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 14:47:56)

quote:

Hallelujah! FTP is the proper way IMO!

not if you build the page in FP and there are extensions involved - with or without css (and fp does include css)

i have never known ftp to be any faster than fp's publish function same speed for me



Peppergal -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 15:01:12)

quote:

FTP is the proper way IMO!


I disagree. It is *a* way, but there is nothing wrong with FP's Publish.

It's easy and fast. Could be improved, but what can't?



Giomanach -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 15:48:29)

quote:

FTP is the proper way IMO!

Shot in the foot....I'm gonna do the other one so you got two to match!

As has been said, there is nothing wrong with FP publish feature, and yes, I agree with Karen, it could be improved ( a better interface for me), but that's by the by...Karen has summed it up tho...it is *a* way to upload webs, bt what if using FP and you have FPSE on the page you're using, FTping it won't *install* the page. Pages with FPSE on the need *installing* to the web rather than uploading.

He's gonna limp[:D]

Dan



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 15:50:01)

Hi
I have moved the page to here.

http://www.nrgsaver.com/NRGWeb804/default.htm

Many of the links won't work yet because I am building the sub-pages that will list the product pages.

As an example if you go to:

http://www.nrgsaver.com/NRGWeb804/company-info.asp

it has a list of all the pages relating to company information. They won't be accessable until all the pages are installed on my regular site. I just set up the NewWeb804 folder so I can look at my pages on the web. Some links will work like "table of contents" but it will take you to the toc that is currently on my web.

You will just have to wait to see the finished product until I am all done :>)



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 15:56:17)

Hey!!! IMO legally covers me from making any assumption I like. FTP is my personal preference, I cannot complain about FPs publish feature as I've never used FP. Can you CHMOD in FP??! Obviously it has its advantages, and that's fine, so there [:-]

If nobody was entitled to their opinion and preference we'd all be wearing grey and plug ourselves into a terminal to download our next brain patch!



dpf -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:00:03)

quote:

If nobody was entitled to their opinion and preference we'd all be wearing grey and plug ourselves into a terminal to download our next brain patch!
-true but!.... you acknowledge never using FP publish. I rest my case



JacieClaeys -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:07:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL:

not if you build the page in FP and there are extensions involved - with or without css (and fp does include css)

i have never known ftp to be any faster than fp's publish function same speed for me


My situation is a little different. I work on my sites (and other sites sometimes) from two different locations. I have 2 sites and each is over 80 pages. So if I upload from one location and then go work at the other location, if I have to use FP Publish it sends up pages from the current site whether I want them to go or not. Also wants to delete pages from the server if I don't have them on the current machine I am working on. It can be a nightmare with that many pages. I have to read and choose yes or no on every file.

It is a thousand times faster for me with FTP. I just send up what I want and am done with it.

I have one site in asp and one site php, both with shopping carts and I have no problem sending up FTP unless I have a "form".Sometimes hover buttons don't work with FTP, but most of the time they do.

Sometimes it takes FP 20 minutes just to go thru my files to see what it wants to send when I only have one or two changed pages. That would be a 2 min. trick with FTP.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:08:15)

quote:

You acknowledge never using FP publish. I rest my case.

By 'proper' I meant have access to CHMOD, drag and drop files, rename them etc. Case rested, but it was never really opened! I must humbly apologise if anyone was offended about my opinion. Again, the comment:

quote:

My greatest incentive will be so that I can send all my pages up using FTP and never have to send another page up FP publish.

Was covertly saying that she wished to move away from FP publish, which, having more experience with FTP, I'd recommend. From my point of view!



dpf -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:10:04)

quote:

offended about my opinion

Im never ever offended by you., Mark....<smile>



dpf -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:12:22)

Jacie
have you tried th FP function of indicating "do not publish" on files you dont want to publish? In my experience, that allows very fast publication of just the files I want published.



markhawker -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:12:29)

quote:

quote:

offended about my opinion
Im never ever offended by you., Mark....<smile>

That's OK then! Like floodgates were opened for expressing an opinion LOL, anyway. Jacie, look forward to seeing the site, also though, I'd suggest not using an applet for the navigation. Look at my 'client work' section on my site, and the Transactional View template site I've started!

Regards,



dpf -> RE: Take a Look Please (8/24/2004 16:15:22)

Now I do agree with Mark about all of those java applets - 1 for each button -shhesh. if you dont want css for that, javascript would be much more efficient than java applets in that instance.



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