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Peter -> Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 13:06:12)

I have a personal non-commercial web site, http://www.edinphoto.org.uk. The site does not try to do anything very clever, but it has become large and is still growing. It is now about 500Mb and has about 30,000 files with about 1Gb of bandwidth used daily.

The site has been hosted successfully for about the past three years by FastHosts. They have provided a good service for me at a reasonable cost, but recently they have had some problems keeping FrontPage extensions working for me.

They now suggest that I should consider moving away from FrontPage and "using a program such as Dreamweaver as it is FTP based, and so is less likely to encounter problems" or "using Macromedia Contribute which is very similar to FrontPage to manage my site".

I am reluctant to move away from FrontPage which I understand and which does what I need for updating my site - but perhaps a move will be inevitable.

What do you suggest? I look forward to hearing your views, to help me decide what to do and when.

Thank you.

- Peter



Thomas Brunt -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 13:33:37)

I don't think it matters as long as you're not editing live. I can say that editing the FP nav component live on a huge site can certainly cause server issues.

FP 2003 offers a much more efficient way to publish than do previous versions. You can publish selected files or folders.

I do recommend that you retire the FP nav component if you're using that on a site that size.




d a v e -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 13:43:52)

IF you were thinking of moving away from FP then you might as well just stop using anything that relies on the extensions and just publish (am i right in thinking this?? that it won't matter then about fp extensions) without having to learn a new app/spend money (and i'm a big DW fan;)

also there's nothing to stop you using FP in conjunction with an ftp programme if you don't need extensions, though publishing might be trickier.

personally it's one of the reasons i would never use FP anyway (the reliance on extensions - *if* used - as there always some to be some problems with extensions being reinstalled, though i'm quick to admit that i have no experience of publishing with FP so it may just be my perception from various forums/forii )



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 15:13:30)

Thanks Thomas and Dave for your quick and helpful replies. I follow most of what you say. See below.

Thomas:

1. Agreed. I don't edit the live site. I edit the site on my own PC then publish changes.

2. Yes I find FP 2003 works well for publishing. I can rask FP to publish changed pages only (selecting them as those with more recent dates). Publishing usually takes about a minute.

3. My recent problems have occurred because the live site has occasionaly lost its FP extensions (e.g. the page backgrounds have gone blank and the text has returned to a default text and the GuestBook no longer works).

4. I'm not sure what an "FP nav component" is. Can you tell me then I'll know whether or not I'll need to stop using it?


David

5. It is interesting to hear that FP Extensions seem to have a reputation for problems. My web host, FastHosts, has found it necessary to add a feature to their service called "reinstall FP extensions" to cope with these problems.

This worked well until my site grew and now if I use "reinstall FP extensions" it times out.

So now, if FP extensions are lost, I have to delete the whole site from the FastHosts server, remove and reinstate FP Extensions and then publish all pages (= five hours using my broadband!)

6. Please let me know if the following makes sense to you. I will be interested to receive comments from you or anybody else on any of the following points:

I am currently using FrontPage because:

(a) I find it easy to add pages and change pages.
(b) FP keeps track of all the links between pages, even when I re-name some of them.
(c) FP publishing is easy, with just a couple of clicks.
(d) FP extensions gives me themes (default backgrouns and fonts)
(e) FP extensions gives me a guest book.

If I could find an easy way to do what I need without using FP Extensions, I would do so.

For (a): I could presumably use FP without extensions OR Dreamweaver.
For (b): I could presumably use FP without extensions OR Dreamweaver.
For (c): I could presumably use FTP for FP without extensions or Dreamweaver.
(I'm not sur how easy I would find FTP compared to FP publishing.)
For (d): I assume that Dreamweaver will have its own themes that I cold use.
I don't know if I could do anything similar in FP without using FP extensions.
I don't know how much work involved in transferring the themes for my site to DW. For (e): Is there a suitable guestbook that I could use that does not involve FP extensions?
I have had a look at a few on the internet but all included advertising.
I don't want any advertising on my site. I'm happy to pay for a guest book.
I would consider moving to a new guestbook, whether I continued to use FP or DW.

Thanks (if you are still reading).

- Peter.




Thomas Brunt -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 15:28:13)

The FP nav component is what allows some FP users to change the links on the navigation bars by making changes to the flow chart that appears in FP's Navigation view.

This component was meant for small or medium sized sites. It can become problematic when you're dealing with hundreds or thousands of web pages.

Sounds like your main FP issue is your use of Themes. You don't have to use a FP theme to use FP. The guestbook and form handler should not be a problem for you.



bobby -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 15:52:56)

quote:

(a) I find it easy to add pages and change pages.

All web editors do a good job of adding and changing pages, it's just a matter of getting used to a new tool if you decide to move away from FP
quote:

(b) FP keeps track of all the links between pages, even when I re-name some of them.

That will stop if you move to FTP rather than Publish... Frontpage won't even recognize it as a "web" if you don't Publish it.
quote:

(c) FP publishing is easy, with just a couple of clicks.

FTP is almost as easy. It's just like moving files from one folder to another on your PC
quote:

(d) FP extensions gives me themes (default backgrouns and fonts)
CSS would give you the same thing, but far more powerful and with many more options. Not as easy to apply as a FP theme, but well worth the effort to learn it.
quote:

(e) FP extensions gives me a guest book.

That will go away without using Publish. But there are thousands of guestbook scripts available for free download. You will just need a server that supports php, asp, Perl (cgi-bin) or other...

For everything Frontpage does, there is a non-Frontpage alternative. Some may not be as easy as the FP versions, but in almost every case it's a better one.

By better I mean more control, more options, flexibility, etc




Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 17:37:40)

Thomas:

Thanks for explaining what the "nav component" is.

That's good news, because I don't use it now.

I used it for a month or two when I first set up the site and thought it was obligatory to use.

It was a relief when I discovered that I did not need to use it.

- Peter



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/13/2004 18:38:20)

Thanks Bobby for all the points you make in your reply and thanks Thomas for your conclusion: "Sounds like your main FP issue is use of themes".

From what I have read so far, it seems that I might just be able to cope with a change to Dreamweaver, though it would take me some time to become efficient in using it.

I appreciate that Dremweaver and other programs are likely to have more flexibiltiy, but in practice that would not be my reason for making the change. I have found little need for more flexibility in building my site. My main objective has been to concentrate on the content on my site, rather than to do anything clever in how I present it.

My main reason for making a move to Dreamweaver, or other program, would be to ensure that my site remained reliable and did not encounter the sort of problems that I have found with loss of FP extensions on the published site.


Styles and CSS:

1. If I use Dreamweaver to view and update the site that I have created in Front page, will I see the site without any style being set?

2. Will I first have to make changes to the site to remove the FP styles from it before I make any changes to the site using Dreamweaver?

3. Is it likely to take me a long time to set up Dreamweaver CSS to achieve the equivalent of what my FP styles already achieve? All I really need is to ensure that I have the same background picture on all pages, and that I can define the text font, sizes and colours.

4. Is there a CSS feature in FP that I could use instead of FP styles? If so, this might be the easiest way for me to keep the site running and remove my dependence on FP extensions.


Keeping track of Links

Bobby: I mentioned that one of the things I liked about FP was that it kept track of links between pages, even when I renamed some of the pages. This happens as I update my my site on my PC before publishing it. e.g. when I ask for a page to be renamed, FP asks if I want all the links to be retained. Also, whenever I run 'FP Reports' FP can give me a list of unlinked pages and broken links and let me repair them. Am I right in assuming that Dreamweaver would be able to do something similar for me?

I did not understand your comment: "This will stop if you move to FTP rather than publish" because the features I mention above happen as I update the web site on my local PC, rather than on the published site. (Perhaps my earlier comment was not clear, or perhaps I am missing something obvious in your reply.)


Guestbook

The wide choice of guestbook scripts available on the internet, that would use php, asp, Perl(cgi-bin) etc. sounds good. Are there any of these guestbooks that have become widely used and have a good reputation for reliablity, ease of installation and 'no adverts'. I'm happy to pay for one if it makes life easier for me.


My Conclusions (so far)

Based on the advice received so far today, my inclination is to install a different guestbook in the short term, and to move to Dreamweaver in the medium term - though if it was possible to use CSS in FP, in place of themes in FP, that would probably give me an easier way to keep my site running and to remove my dependance on FP extensions.

- Peter



dpf -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 8:27:49)

Peter: my progression has been this: hand coding html (not very well) to FP to hand coding and now to Dreamweaver. However, I never knock FP - it served me well. Dreamweaver is very powerful; especially with CSS but you need some tutorials to get used to the layout. With all that said, in reading this series, I just get the strong feeling of if it aint broke, dont fix it. You are comfortable with FP and changing to DW might not be your best move. "yes" FP does support and generate CSS although I havent used it and will leave it to others to comment on its reliability.

BTW, its nice to see someone who has questions, take the time to phrase them so carefully - makes it easier for those who want to help. Good Luck!



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 8:42:37)

Dan:

Thanks for taking the rime to give me your comments. I appreciate your advice, based on your own experience.

Making the correct decision at this stage might save me a lot of effort and hassle in the future.

My site is currently working, so I'll read a little more about the options and speak to a few more people, rather than make any hasty move immediately.

- Peter



dpf -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 8:45:29)

quote:

Making the correct decision at this stage might save me a lot of effort and hassle in the future.

My site is currently working, so I'll read a little more about the options and speak to a few more people, rather than make any hasty move immediately

Peter: \my own experience (in life) is that the hasty decisions, when there in fact was time to delay the decision for more info, are the worst ones!



Giomanach -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 8:53:44)

As is known by a fair few Outfront members....I'm a hand coder...and will give FP a good kick-in any day....but that's a personal grudge on the program.

Really, I can't knock it. It does what it was designed for...and more. And it is a great starting place for the web design n00bs.

My learning process has been FP, Hand Coding(HTML & JS), DW, CSS, ASP, PHP.

quote:

Based on the advice received so far today, my inclination is to install a different guestbook in the short term, and to move to Dreamweaver in the medium term - though if it was possible to use CSS in FP, in place of themes in FP, that would probably give me an easier way to keep my site running and to remove my dependance on FP extensions.

I'd leave you site as is for now, and get used to Dreamweaver first. It can take some getting used to before being able to utilise it to it's full extent. It is a very powerful program.

Dreamweaver isn't cheap (unless purchased from eBay that is), but it is worth every penny/cent. Well, being a Hand coding/DW fan...It's perfect for me...

Unfortunatley, FP does everything FP style...unless you hand code, it won't utilise CSS to its full extent etc.

Before choosing another guestbook, you also need to find out the other Server Side Techs that your host supports - ASP or PHP - choosing the wrong one and it won't work - simple as that.

To remove any and all dependancies on FPE...the longest, and easiet way to to gradually rebuild the web, but with a bit of patience, and a fair bit of knowledge, you can track down every piece of FP coding and replace it.

Just my $0.02



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 10:25:11)

Hi Giomanach:

Guestbook

I have had a look at what my host (FastHosts) can support, and I don't think that it is likely to restrict me. The package I am using appears to support "ASP, PHP, Perl, SSI".

I am not familiar with any of these! When I look for suitable, reliable gusetbook script, is there any of these server side techs that you would recommend that I go with, or keep away from?


Moving away from FP Extensions

You mentioned that the longest, and easiet way to move away from FP extensions is to gradually rebuild the web, tracking down every piece of FP coding and replacing it. That sounds rather daunting as I have about 6,000 pages on my web, and my hope is to spend my time adding more content to the web rather than rebuild it.


Replies on this Forum

I seem to be about the only contributor to this forum who has not yet descovered how to cut and paste extracts from other peoples' comments and included them in boxes in my own postings to the forum!

- Peter



dpf -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 10:27:50)

quote:

I seem to be about the only contributor to this forum who has not yet descovered how to cut and paste extracts from other peoples' comments and included them in boxes in my own postings to the forum!

if you copy the text and then hit "reply", the boxes are automatic. otherwise, copy text and insideof your reply, select quote and paste between <quote></quote>



Giomanach -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 10:35:35)

quote:

<quote></quote>

Not quite[8D]

[quote] [/quote] [:)]

quote:

I am not familiar with any of these! When I look for suitable, reliable gusetbook script, is there any of these server side techs that you would recommend that I go with, or keep away from?

http://www.hotscripts.com

All come with "installation" manuals etc, loads to choose from, pick any, some are customisable...I prefer PHP....but ASP ones are just as good...

quote:

You mentioned that the longest, and easiet way to move away from FP extensions is to gradually rebuild the web, tracking down every piece of FP coding and replacing it. That sounds rather daunting as I have about 6,000 pages on my web, and my hope is to spend my time adding more content to the web rather than rebuild it.

That's why I said gradual. You don't have to do it all at once. A web of 6k pages is a tall order. But trust me, after implementation of CSS, and total SEO, and a bit more of image optimisation, and your bandwidth usage will drop.

CSS is powerful, but needs to be learnt very carefully, and to implement successfully into any web can be a big task. Just learn the basics to get formatting and link effects out of the way, and then when ready, you can think about the more complex stuff like advanced psuedo classed and positioning

[8|][;)]



bobby -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 10:46:15)

To get your feet wet with CSS, click here:
www.w3schools.com/css

The hotscripts link that Dan posted is a great one... also try www.totalscripts.com

I'm not sure if DW has the same link tracking and auto-update features that FP has. I haven't used DW since version 4. The new MX may very well give you that option, but I'm not sure.

As far as FP funtctions quitting when you go to FTP, that typically only affects what's on the website. If Frontpage still recognizes your local copy (on your hard drive) as a FP web then you'll still be able to use all the features... you just may not be able to do so once it's published, from the server end.

ASP - Active Server Pages. Server side scripting, Microsoft developed technology (Windows servers only). Its no longer supported, but ASP 4 is still a viable language.

PHP - open source scripting language, cross platform compatible (Linux, Unix, Windows).

Perl - another open source scripting language, using CGI - Common Gateway Interface. You'll see a lot of talk about the cgi-bin, which is the directory where most of the "programs" written in Perl will reside.

SSI - Server Side Includes. Basically alllows you to create a text file with "snippets" of web code and "include" them on multiple pages. When you want something to change in that code you make the change in the text file and it will appear on every page that "includes" it.




d a v e -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 12:10:05)

DW has had link tracking since v1 (with auto or optional update)

you can download a 30 day trial from macromedia.com, though as mentioned already you may be better sticking with FP and implementing css



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 12:21:05)

Dan and Giomanach:

quote:

if you copy the text and then hit "reply", the boxes are automatic.


Thanks : That was easy!


quote:

A web of 6k pages is a tall order. But trust me, after implementation of CSS, and total SEO, and a bit more of image optimisation, and your bandwidth usage will drop.


If I got a drop in bandwidth with moving from FP extensions to CSS, that would be a 'bonus'.

So far as my images are concerned, I use jpgs and it continues to be a balance between quality and size of image that I create. I decide what is best for each image. Initially I was very strict, setting myself a maximum size that I allowed myself to create; but more recently I have been more flexible.

I usually give a warning against a thumbnail of an image when the file size of the picture is significantly larger than normal, so that viewers can decide whether or not to click on it. I have taken the view that, especially now that more people have broadband, many may well be happier to wait a few seconds longer to receive a good quality image (such as a map where they can easily read all the street names) rather than have something of poor quality quicker.



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 12:32:36)

Bobby:

quote:

ASP - Active Server Pages. Server side scripting, Microsoft developed technology (Windows servers only). Its no longer supported, but ASP 4 is still a viable language.

PHP - open source scripting language, cross platform compatible (Linux, Unix, Windows).

Perl - another open source scripting language, using CGI - Common Gateway Interface. You'll see a lot of talk about the cgi-bin, which is the directory where most of the "programs" written in Perl will reside.

SSI - Server Side Includes. Basically alllows you to create a text file with "snippets" of web code and "include" them on multiple pages. When you want something to change in that code you make the change in the text file and it will appear on every page that "includes" it.


Thanks. Your explanation above are very helpful, and just the level of detail that I need to begin to understand what the options are. I'll keep reading on the subject, and hope that my site does not crash in a way that needs any drastic action to be taken at short notice.

Your comment on "include" under SSI remind me of a tip that I read on an Outfront forum a couple of years ago, recommending the use of "include pages" in creating a FrontPage web, for use where several different pages need to include same components.

I have used this a lot (e.g. to add links to related pages). Using "include pages" must have saved me hundreds of hours of typing and cut down on the number of errors that I would have created.

- Peter



bobby -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 12:57:16)

quote:

I have used this a lot (e.g. to add links to related pages). Using "include pages" must have saved me hundreds of hours of typing and cut down on the number of errors that I would have created.

SSI is similar to the Front Page component includes... only they do not require FPSE's

They do require server support, which it looks like you have already.

Find out from your host if SSI is supported on all page extensions (.htm, .html, .shtml, .asp, etc)

Many of them will only parse .shtml, .php and .asp for SSI... unless they set up the server to parse your other pages as well...




caz -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 13:20:41)

quote:

FastHosts. They have provided a good service for me at a reasonable cost, but recently they have had some problems keeping FrontPage extensions working for me.


On reading this thread, I think that your problem is with Fasthosts and would suggest that you move the site to a host who is expert with FPSE. Many of them claim to be and will then suggest that all the problems are caused by Frontpage, the size of your site and/or the extensions... unlike my host and no doubt Thomas, here at OF.

You have stated your reasons for liking the web management features of FP and are familiar with the program, so logically given that FP does not have problems with large sites, there is no the reason for giving yourself the learning curve necessary for DW ( Not to mention the expense[;)]).

None of the wysiwyg editors give totally clean CSS, which would be ideal for your large site but there is at least one CSS editor, Style Master which will, as well as incuding tutorials. You can also learn to hand code using Notepad, but the method is up to you.

I use FP2003, and do CSS separately- it's the safer method of working. I also use FP Includes with no problem, as you have done.

IMHO look for a new host.
Cheers,
Carol




d a v e -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 13:59:36)

as an aside i think that the css in DW mx2004 gives very clean css, though you still need to know what you're doing, of course.



dpf -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/14/2004 14:09:11)

quote:

as an aside i think that the css in DW mx2004 gives very clean css, though you still need to know what you're doing, of course.

I agree..I'm taking a Dreamweaver course right now and it is dead on..and simple to apply!



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/15/2004 5:19:46)

Bobby:

quote:

SSI is similar to the Front Page component includes... only they do not require FPSE's


Thanks: I'm sure that SSI will be able to cope with a lot more than I need, but my priority is to be able to continue to easily update the site and to have a site that remains reliable. So I think staying with 'FP includes' and avoiding any server side support will probably be best for me, at least in the short term.



Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/15/2004 5:27:23)

Caz:

quote:

On reading this thread, I think that your problem is with Fasthosts and would suggest that you move the site to a host who is expert with FPSE. Many of them claim to be and will then suggest that all the problems are caused by Frontpage, the size of your site and/or the extensions... unlike my host and no doubt Thomas, here at OF.


Thanks. To be fair to FastHosts, I have had a very good service from them. They give good telephone and email support. They give good stats for the use of my site. They have been very reliable for me for the past couple of years (apart from the very occasional loss of FP extensions). So I would be reluctant to leave them.

I have been looking to see what the alternatives might be if I had to reconsider, but I have not yet found anybody else who would be able to cope with high bandwidth usage (currently about 1Gb per day and increasing) at a reasonable cost.

My site is a personal non-commercial site with no income from advertising or from any other source and I am paying the cost of hosting the site personally.



Giomanach -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/15/2004 5:33:18)

Peter

quote:

So I think staying with 'FP includes' and avoiding any server side support will probably be best for me, at least in the short term.

SSI don't require any server side support. All you need to enter is:

<!--#INCLUDE FILE="locationoffile.htm"-->

And that's it...when you update the file specified in the include, it will update throughout the web, no server side support required, just another line of coding[;)]




Peter -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/15/2004 6:50:45)

Giomanach / Bobby:

quote:

SSI don't require any server side support. All you need to enter is:

<!--#INCLUDE FILE="locationoffile.htm"-->

And that's it...when you update the file specified in the include, it will update throughout the web, no server side support required, just another line of coding


Thanks Giomanach. That sounds straightforward.

But I am now a bit puzzled by the reference to server support in Bobby's post 20.

Am I missing something obvious?

- Peter



Giomanach -> RE: Site too large for FrontPage? (10/15/2004 7:00:13)

Peter

Bobby is merely stating that your host needs to be able to support SSI on your accounts, and all packages at Fasthosts state they do support SSI, so you have no need to worry[;)]

HTH



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