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Mojo
Posts: 2422
From: Chicago
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Eliminate eBay competion... - 11/19/2004 18:18:39
There is a tool that is fast becoming a highly effective weapon on eBay. This tool stems from the DMCA. EBay has a program called Verified Rights Owner (or VeRO). This program allows VeRO members to have auctions shut down almost immediately. The VeRO member does not have to reveal their contact information to the person they are filing against, other than an email address. Generic email address are accepted.
A person that wants to become a VeRO member has only to fill out a form, sign it and fax it in. The address is not verified, but eBay does call the phone number give the first time the VeRO is used to remove an auction. After that, they rarely call.
I should mention that the form says your signing it under penalty of perjury. I am not sure what kind of perjury penalty eBay can enforce - I guess they could delete your eBay account, but ** you don't have to be an eBay member to be a VeRO member and if the VeRO member lives outside the US then almost nothing can be done.
What does this mean? Imagine this scenario:
Someone notices that your selling a lot of widgets and they want to be the only ones selling... so they follow these simple steps:
1 - Purchase a prepaid cell phone with cash at any 7-11.
2 - Download the VeRO application/complaint form here.
3 - Sign up for a dead end email address (yahoo, gmail etc).
4 - Fill out the form and fax it to eBay (use a fax not at your home)
EBay will call the phone the first time you use the VeRO against someone, so never give the number to anyone and always answer it with your 'Company Name'.
After faxing in the VeRO form all subsequent VeRO complaints can be done via email.
Once a VeRO member makes a complaint the targeted auctions are removed very quickly. EBay tells the target to not relist them without the VeRO member's permission. The VeRO member is NOT required to respond to the targeted auction.
EBay will provide no help to the target. In fact, they support the VeRO member as they are the copyright holder (whoever claims VeRO status first owns the copyright in eBay's mind). :)
There are hundreds of stories about VeRO being used as an attack tool. The really clever ones use an out of country company that becomes the VeRO member.
To defend yourself, you can file a Counter Notice as defined in the DMCA. EBay may or may not forward it to the VeRO member. Supposedly, if after 14 days the VeRO member does not respond to the Counter Notices (respond with a lawsuit), eBay must let you relist your auctions.
Here is the kicker. If an eBay member wins the Counter Notice they only win it for the specific auction mentioned in the Counter Notice. If they create another auction selling the same widget the VeRO member can (and will) 'VeRO' the new auctions and the entire process starts over.
I found this out the hard way...
Good luck to all eBayers and to all - happy hunting!
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tekkiangel
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/1/2004 18:29:57
Nasty business.
What happens if 2 parties apply for a VeRO for the same widgets?
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Mojo
Posts: 2422
From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/1/2004 19:25:32
quote:
What happens if 2 parties apply for a VeRO for the same widgets?
I just spoke with eBay. All VeRO complaints are treated the same. Being a VeRO member does not provide immunity from other VeRO complaints.
At any point a VeRO member can give permission to an eBay member to use their Intellectual Property (IP) OR they can admit that they made a mistake and the eBay member never broke their IP.
EBay is very slow for anyone except the VeRO member. Anyone who claims IP rights first - wins, at least for a while. According to the DMCA, eBay must respond withing 10 days of someone filing a Counter Notice... in reality it will take close to a month. If someone files a VeRO complaint against you just plan on being out of action for 30 days. The real fun starts when eBay has allowed you to relist your auctions and the VeRO member files another complaint - you start the entire process (30 days) all over.
If you are hit with a VeRO, and you are *positive* that you have not done anything wrong you can sue the person or company that filed the VeRO IF eBay gave you any information about the VeRO filer. If the VeRO filer is just hunting heads they likely provided bogus information to eBay in the first place.
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Charles Copes
Posts: 24
From: Hahnville, LA 70057
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/1/2004 20:11:11
I know of one small company that has chosen to fight back on the trademark and copyright issue on Ebay. Check out this site... http://www.tabberone.com/
about midway down the home page you will see some comments about Shabby Chic and a link to "Trademarks". This little company has had the guts to sue Disney, Dunkin Donuts, and several other big boys... and they've won. If people are being intimidated by VeRO members, there is hope... if they are in the right.
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Mojo
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From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/1/2004 20:34:27
She is great! I have had many emails back and forth with Karen (co-owner of Tabberone) about VeRO. She wins because she is correct and she knows who to sue. A VeRO member can choose to only provide an email address as contact information. If they never reply... too bad. Just file the Counter Notice and wait 30 days.
Part of me wonders if Karen from tabberone isn't letting these large companies hang themselves. She knows the law and is willing to go to the mats. IMO, most corporate attorney's don't look up the law before filing a VeRO. They just feel something is not right about what she is doing and end up getting themselves in trouble.
If someone filed a VeRO against Karen and they did not provide any contact information she would be powerless. She told me that the only thing she would do would be to file a Counter Notice and wait for eBay to reply.
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dpf
Posts: 7121
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From: India-napolis
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/1/2004 20:41:36
sheesh..this is all new to me but her site is pretty cool ( though someone should tell her about the flashing lines..my eyes are going buggy..lol)
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tabberone
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/2/2004 8:33:47
Actually if I got shutdown by an unverified VeRO member I would contact the real company and let them know that someone is policing their trademark and that they need to do something otherwise they are going to be held liable.
And a lot of these VeRO members (the real ones) are lawyers. They should know what the law is before shutting down an auction.
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dpf
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/2/2004 8:36:05
quote:
And a lot of these VeRO members (the real ones) are lawyers. They should know what the law is before shutting down an auction tsk tsk - so naive
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Mojo
Posts: 2422
From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/2/2004 12:08:43
quote:
Actually if I got shutdown by an unverified VeRO member I would contact the real company and let them know that someone is policing their trademark and that they need to do something otherwise they are going to be held liable.
That is not what you indicated that I should do. I don't think you fully understand the situation.
I own the 'real' company. Since eBay has provided no contact information (other than a throw-away email address) I have nobody to sue.
The cases you won were only possible because you had someone to sue. I have been shut down by eBay with zero recourse* other than the 30 day Counter Notice.
* actually, zero recourse it not true. As I have outlined above - VeRO is a tool that can be used as a weapon by both sides.
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tabberone
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/2/2004 12:18:54
Email Sean Chaffin - schaffin@ebay.com
He's in charge of the VeRO program. Tell him you own the rights and someone else is VeRO'ing you.
With some of the policies that eBay is instituting they IMHO are going to lose their "we're just a venue" status and they will run into a lot of problems.
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Mojo
Posts: 2422
From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/2/2004 15:17:22
Yeah, I emailed him, twice. No response. It really does not matter at this point in time because the Counter Notice process has begun.
The point I am trying to make is that anyone can remove their competition using this tool. You don't need to own a copyright, you just need to be willing to file the VeRO.
Almost forgot - Welcome to OutFront!
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c1sissy
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/2/2004 17:21:29
I'm wondering if this is what happened to my son, He was selling paintball guns, the first two that he put up, somoen complained that he was sellign them "too cheap?" I personally don't thing a gun selling for over a thousand dollars is too cheap. Through his paintball forum he made friends with somone who helped set him up, and was giving him the stock etc.. to do so. It was a good arrangment for him. But someone blew it for him, and I think this might have happened. Imagine someone being so jealous of a 15 + year old trying to earn a few dollars.
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donfaillo
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/31/2007 4:31:15
I know firsthand what you're talking about and even though this discussion is a few years old, I'd be more than happy to hear about anything you've learned since then.
I am an Old Time Radio dealer and I sell my radio shows on eBay. I sell old radio shows from the 1930's, 40's and 50's that are in the public domain and not under copyright protection. Being in a small market, there are only a handful of radio dealers on eBay, but some of them use the Verified Rights Owner program as a way of eliminating competition.
As an example, I had an item removed for alleged copyright infringement on October 09th of 2007. The item number is 260130765303, and the item was for a collection of 274 episodes of the Bob & Ray radio show in mp3 format, and on one c.d. The person that had my listing shut down didn't go after all of the other people who sold the exact same item I was selling, but only mine. I filed a counter notice and a few days later when I received notice from eGay that it had been received, processed and served, I received a call from that person's attorney. He tried to scare me and intimidate me, but I knew my rights and refused to back down. In the end, they let it go and refused to file a lawsuit against me. A few weeks later I was given back my permanent right to relist that item, even though it meant that it would receive a new item number. When eBay reinstated my listing, they said I could find it by looking through my ended listings, and could relist it by simply clicking the 'relist' button, which I did. They also said in that email that they sent emails to all of my customers who purchased that item, informing them that that item had been reinstated, would be assigned a new item number, and that they could find that item number by scrolling through my listings. A month and a half later, this person filed another infringement claim against the same listing. Ebay granted their request as it was a different item number. These are things that I have been dealing with since the early spring of 2006. If anyone has any idea how I can put a stop to this, I would greatly appreciate the input. I've never done anything wrong, and am merely falling victim to eGay's technical rules that they must remove a listing when it's reported as being infringing. I win my case, my item is reinstated, I relist it per the instructions, am assigned a new item number, and am then subjected to the same harrassment by the same party because my item has a new item number that is different from the one that they initially filed a claim against.
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 12/31/2007 14:48:17
Wow, 3 years later and this is still a problem?
Btw, when you're typing out a really long paragraph, it's best to break it up a bit, so it is easier to read.
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Mojo
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From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 1/4/2008 15:15:06
quote:
If anyone has any idea how I can put a stop to this, I would greatly appreciate the input
First, you may not be able to stop it from happening... at least not through normal methods. To make things clear - this is not eBay's fault. VeRO is the method in which eBay implements the DMCA. By U.S. law, if eBay wants to protect itself from lawsuits relating to hosting copyright infringed material they must adhere to the DMCA.
I have been VeRO'd several times since 2004 and it is frustrating each and every time it happens. Fortunately, I have a solution – if you're willing to do it. There are some categories on eBay that if you're not willing to file a fake VeRO – you can't compete. Once the other eBayers realize that you know what VeRO is and that you're willing to use it they will usually leave you alone.
From my original post above:
1 - Purchase a prepaid cell phone with cash at any 7-11.
2 - Download the VeRO application/complaint form
3 - Sign up for a dead end email address (yahoo, gmail etc).
4 - Fill out the form and fax it to eBay (do not use your home fax)
It may be best to use an Internet cafe or public library for all contact - or you could just drive around until you find an open WiFi network and use their connection. The whole operation should be done in secret. Don't fax from your laptop.
The original post is from December of 2004. That Christmas, there was a sub-category of auto part accessories that did not have listings during that Christmas.
In the summer of 2007 I had a lady that was VeRO'ing large batches of our listings claiming that the pictures that we took ourselves were actually her photos. Truthfully, I didn't know who it was that filed the VeRO's because they only gave a gmail address as their contact information and they never replied to my emails. Since this lady had already contacted me complaining about my pricing – I suspected it was her that filed the VeRO. I filed my own against her listings for similar cause being careful to cover my tracks. After that, she never bothered to VeRO me again. It's just business.
I have only filed a counter notice once and that was in December of 2004. It worked, but it was slow. Filing a VeRO gives instant results, is more satisfying and can lead to your listings coming back sooner.
Alternatively, you could always sue whoever is filing the VeRO – if you are able to find out who they are. I'm sure that would take longer than returning a competitors VeRO with your own.
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DebSpecs
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 1/25/2008 12:40:58
Thanks for the warnings about VERO. This forum is the best!
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yycheung
Posts: 3
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 4/11/2008 15:29:35
Hi, Mojo,
I am new to this site, but I was a victim of VeRO competition scam by a competitor who put me to ebay suspension 2 years ago. This seller was after me 2 years ago for violating his trademark, but the items I sold has no trademark of his. He basically remove any of my listing with brand name or not. I know he is a fake VeRO because the trademark he claimed he has was registered at the time in another country to put me down. After I was suspended, I have lots of merchandise sitting at home. Recently, I am trying to clear all my merchandise to recover parts of my cost. Here once again, he is after me again for removing my listing that is not with any trademark or with other non registered brand name. I know a lot of sellers was suspended after he falsely report listing removal for trademark violation. I complainted to ebay I don't believe I have any trademark violation as the brand name of the item I am selling is not registered under any person or any company when I checked online. Of course, ebay doesn't care. Anything between me and the VeRO member is not their business. I am very frustrated as I only want to get parts of my cost back to exit ebay business, but this guy is still after me. I don't know how to fight back until I read your forum. My question to you is can I register as a VeRO member and remove listings from this seller as well? This seller is registered out of the country. Can my friend register as a VeRO member from out of country and put down his listing since this guy is a VeRO member himself? Is it that easy to become VeRO member afterall, do you need any registration or document fax to ebay or something? This whole situation is frustrating as ebay is not supportive at all time and I was falsely accused and to shut down my business. I want to pursue this seller to court but I have no information of his and he is registered out of the country. So there is no point of filing any lawsuit. I lost lots of money for doing nothing wrong but this stupid VeRO elimination setup. If anyone who has similar situation or who can help, please give me some advise. Thank you for all your support.
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Mojo
Posts: 2422
From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 4/14/2008 11:41:35
quote:
can I register as a VeRO member and remove listings from this seller as well?
Yes, but you don't need to register as a VeRO member. VeRO is just eBay's implementation of the DMCA - which they must follow. Once you learn the rules, it's very easy to play
quote:
This seller is registered out of the country
That doesn't matter. EBay is a US based company and must follow US law (DMCA).
quote:
Is it that easy to become VeRO member afterall, do you need any registration or document fax to ebay or something?
You don't need to be a VeRO member.
Here is what you need - http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/NOCI1.pdf >> just fill this out, send it in and any listing you target will be removed. I would hide my steps if you're not really a trademark owner.
quote:
I want to pursue this seller to court but I have no information of his and he is registered out of the country
I know the feeling. There is very little that you can do, working withing the rules, to fight this.
quote:
If anyone who has similar situation or who can help, please give me some advise.
I have been involved in several VeRO disputes. If the person filing the VeRO is hiding their identity and continually hitting you with VeRO's you only have three options.
1. File a Counter Notice. This won't matter much if you keep getting hit with VeRO's.
2. Quit eBay. If you keep listing the same items after receiving a VeRO eBay will eventually ban your account.
3. Fight fire with fire. First, I am not a lawyer and you could get yourself in trouble if you are stupid enough to get caught using this technique....
If you know who is attacking you with a VeRO - Hit them back with a VeRO. HARD. Shut down ALL of their listings. If they relist, hit them again and complain to eBay that they are ignoring your VeRO. Ebay will ban them if they don't stop listing. Following my advice in the original post of this thread you will need to hide your identity. Never reply to their email. They will threaten you will all sorts of legal action. If you're sure you have hidden yourself - Just ignore it. From a different email that you're sure hides your identity, send them a simple email that offers a truce. If they agree to a truce - Great! If not, keep hitting them any time they list an item.
If you don't know who is attacking you with a VeRO you can use a scorched-earth policy and VeRO everyone selling the same items as you. Don't forget to VeRO yourself so you don't stand out - or just don't list while you're nuking everyone.
Something else to remember - This is not eBay's fault. It's not that they don't care when you contact them. Rather, they are following the law and protecting themselves legally. They WILL respond to a Counter Notice as that is a part of the DMCA. Like I mentioned earlier, the Counter Notice keeps your listing out for a few weeks and the person can simply VeRO you again.
There are some categories on eBay that if you're not willing to duke it out with VeRO's - to establish that you will fight - you simply can't compete. Again, it's not eBay's fault.
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yycheung
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 4/15/2008 23:24:03
Hi, Mojo,
Thank you for your detail explanation in how to fight back. Today, I was just hit again from the same guy. I had used the form to attack the guy, but ebay send me an email saying my submitted information is not clear and they asked me for my document and trade mark#. Did I do something wrong? How do I fill out the form without being asked for additional information? I really appreciate your time answering my question. You have been a great help to me. Thank you.
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yycheung
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 4/15/2008 23:52:02
Mojo,
I forgot to ask you if ebay call me on my phone # provided. What kind of questions do they ask me? I have to prepare to how to answer their questions without suspicious. Thanks for your help.
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Mojo
Posts: 2422
From: Chicago
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 4/17/2008 0:20:45
I can only draw you a map. You have to make the journey yourself.
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Scotty
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RE: Eliminate eBay competion... - 4/29/2008 21:58:47
An interesting note on tabberone.com. I've done a little checking on this, and know one of the people on the 'list of shame'...and that person is a sole proprietor, known as a quality craftsperson in his trade, and the information presented is more than half incorrect and tabberone has been told this.
Additionally; my source was told the only way tabberone would remove them from 'the list', was to pay a 'fee' to tabberone...some areas of the world that's known as extortion.
Regards, Scotty
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