Opening new windows (target="_blank") (Full Version)

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anderskorte -> Opening new windows (target="_blank") (3/11/2005 3:45:01)

There has been discussion over if new browser windows should be opened for certain links.

Let's see what Nielsen has to say about this:

quote:

9. Opening New Browser Windows

Opening up new browser windows is like a vacuum cleaner sales person who starts a visit by emptying an ash tray on the customer's carpet. Don't pollute my screen with any more windows, thanks (particularly since current operating systems have miserable window management).

Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine, the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the Back button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out Back button.

Links that don't behave as expected undermine users' understanding of their own system. A link should be a simple hypertext reference that replaces the current page with new content. Users hate unwarranted pop-up windows. When they want the destination to appear in a new page, they can use their browser's "open in new window" command -- assuming, of course, that the link is not a piece of code that interferes with the browser’s standard behavior.

(emphasis by me)
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html

I'm quoting this only because I share the same opinion.

Don't open new windows, even for offsite links. Why? Because we don't want them. You, as a web designer, may want to open them but I don't see how viewers benefit from it. Instead, not everyone is using Internet Explorer on fast computer with a Windows XP window manager at 1152x864 with cascading-ordered windows and grouped items in the taskbar. They may be using interfaces that better adjust to their needs and working habits.

It's a pain browsing the web, for example, with Mozilla under Fluxbox (on Linux) when new windows are popping up right after I have adjusted the current window to my preferences.

Remember that on many browsers the spawning of new browser windows can't be avoided.

Web Design is not interface design. So please don't alter the user's interface with target="_blank". It's better to let the user decide, so that we avoid unnecessary pain caused for many viewers. On the contrary, leaving the target attribute off shouldn't cause any problems for your website.

anders



rdouglass -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (3/30/2005 16:09:53)

quote:

Web Design is not interface design.


Don't take this personally but I think your argument was really damaged by that statement. You were doing great up until that point.[;)]

Yes, actually Web Design IS interface design; it's designing the interface to your content. I'm designing my site to best serve the content I have, not to force the issue into some percieved constraint that everything must be in the same window. Isn't that WHY browsers support multiple windows?

Sure, I can put all that stuff so that it opens in the same window, but in many cases with the stuff I work on a new window IS ABSOLUTELY the best way to serve content.

I have a specific situation in mind where I serve up scanned insurance manuals. 99.9% of the time the user wants to see several sections of a manual at the same time. So they keep an index of the manual open, and at least 1 or 2 windows on specific pages of specific chapters.



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (3/30/2005 23:19:09)

imo you just have to be consistent and decide when a new window *can* be a good idea, though they can be annoying ;)



anderskorte -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (3/31/2005 1:26:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rdouglass

quote:

Web Design is not interface design.


Don't take this personally but I think your argument was really damaged by that statement. You were doing great up until that point.[;)]

Of course I don't take personally. [:)] I sometimes like to write a bit more controlversial stuff like this.

I agree what you said there. But what I really meant is that people use different kinds of interfaces. Period. It's impossible to predict what kinds of window managers or special user agents they're using.

If they're on Windows using IE or Mozilla, for instance, this isn't a problem. New windows may just be a small annoyance for them, not an accessibility problem.

So, if you open new windows and in this way alter the users' UI you sort of assume that they're using some certain type of interface, maybe something similar to Windows or KDE on Linux. There is the danger that you rule out those who use some special interface you have never even heard of, or use extraordinary preferences. The sad thing is that these are usually people with disabilities who already find it difficult to browse the web, even without new windows popping up.

You're also assuming that the users can't open new windows themselves, even if they want to.

But if you're absolutely aware of what you're doing then go ahead, it won't make your website any worse. Most of the tech people here are a lot more experienced than I am, and you sure know what you're doing. I also tend to think that new windows are very handy for e.g. quick help items on web pages.

But if you open new windows, make sure to inform the user, so I know to open it in a tab instead. [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: rdouglass

Isn't that WHY browsers support multiple windows?

Oh. I always thought browsers support new windows because the spec says, if the target frame doesn't exist, the link should open in a new window.



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (3/31/2005 4:23:29)

Accessibility.........

<a target="_blank" href="http://www.otherwebsite.com/" title="link to the otherwebsite opens a new window">

sorted.



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (3/31/2005 6:46:53)

you also remember that no matter how much more vastly experienced and authorised neilsen is than me he can be a bit anal :) some (Windows) users particularly *are* used to multiple windows and they probably don't know how to open a new window or tab, so while i mostly respect and agree with the big N i would still make up my own mind on whether a site warrants its use.

as jaybee pointed out it's a valid option as long as you remember to *inform* the user that a new window will open.

to be honest as well i haven't really made my mind up completely on this issue either and it's an interesting point.

and as for external/off site links (i.e. those opening other sites) that's also a bit of a conundrum. :)



anderskorte -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (4/12/2005 7:41:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: d a v e

...some (Windows) users particularly *are* used to multiple windows and they probably don't know how to open a new window or tab...

Bah... I'm not. ;) I hate it when I'm on Fluxbox in Linux and right after I have given a specific title for the browsing window and made it as I like it, a new window pops up. Then I have to target the [x] button with my mouse, go back and open the link in a new tab instead. Window managing in Black/Flux/Openbox isn't the best one afterall. I sometimes spend not longer than 5 seconds on a website, but the site author hasn't realized that I jump through a lot of pages pretty fast and don't really care to stay on their lovely website.

Web design is just politics. For me, new windows are more a pain than pleasure.

And yes, Nielsen isn't the most reliable guru in all situations.

quote:

...that's also a bit of a conundrum. :)
Whoa! A new word.



labs123 -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (4/13/2005 8:31:33)

ok getting confused now!!!!! [&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:]

As Im new to web design I designed my work site without links opening into new windows then rethought it after hearing peoples views,, now getting all confused again.

Is there like a majority opinion on this or do I just go with what I feel???



anderskorte -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (4/14/2005 6:34:28)

quote:

As Im new to web design I designed my work site without links opening into new windows then rethought it after hearing peoples views,, now getting all confused again.

Yes, that's what web design is, always choosing between bad and just a little less bad. :)

Well there are situations when you just *have* to open new windows, like on some quick help items, image description etc. It very much depends, though. But I don't understand why people would want new windows to jump without asking. Those complaining about new windows *not* popping up must be those IE/Windows users on super fast machines and a lot of free time.

It's best just to use common sense. I started this thread only because clearly many web designers don't even know about this new window problem and use target="_blank" even for regular insite links. So you have to wake them up a bit every now and then, like some web designers more experienced than me have waken me up sometimes.

The problem once again is simply here: If you define target="_blank", people can't open it in the same window. But if you don't define it, they can open it where they want.



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (4/14/2005 8:47:48)

Given that 99.9999999% of people I deal with don't have a clue how to control how windows open or don't open, and given that there's very little agreement between designers, I have decided to go with the following until W3C or some other authority convince me otherwise.

Within a site; new pages open within the existing window

External links: open in a new window. For accessibility and to inform sighted users, I always put a title as described in my post above. This gets read to blind users and also provides a tooltip for sighted users so everyone is fully aware they're about to get a new window.

Labs you just have to go with your own decision until there is general agreement from all the authorities.



dpf -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (4/14/2005 8:56:13)

quote:

Within a site; new pages open within the existing window

External links: open in a new window
I do the same. BTW, did you ever click an ad from this site? opens in the SAME window - apparently Thomas has confidence his viewers will come back - frankly, that is usually the motivation for opening new window - fear the viewer will be gone forever.



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (4/14/2005 9:54:46)

also target="_blank" won't validate with a strict doctype...



rodaniel -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 5:01:59)

I've recently begun a major site overhaul and decided maybe it was time to revisit this topic also.

In the past, I've typically coded gone with Jaybee's convention of having external links open in a new browser window. I got into the habit of doing this to make sure that the visitor wasn't leaving my site just because I gave a link to some other site. Y'know, trying to work on the 'sticky' aspect of webdev that used to be all the buzz.

So, my hyperlinks generally look like this: 

<A TARGET="_blank" HREF="http://www.2dolphins.com">2Dolphins</A>
I never gave this much thought since I practically never use any browser other than Microsoft's Internet Explorer.

(I know, I know, shame on me for 'developing' web pages without testing in other browsers and/or platforms. But I'm an novice, so cut me some slack! At least I finally did get moved away from using frames!)

But now with tabbed interfaces available with the most common browsers, I wondered if there's a cleaner way to handle this...

Ideally, I'd like to achieve the same results as you get when you do a wheel-click in IE 7 - that is, open the link in another tab, but not redirect the focus to that tab. (Man, I do love that feature of IE 7!)

Is there a reasonably easy way to code external links to target another tab in the same browser window rather than opening a whole separate browser?

Oh, by the way, I just recently discovered the TITLE tag for giving more info about a link (I did mention I was a rookie, right?) and this is just awesome!

Rob
www.2Dolphins.com



Tailslide -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 6:04:28)

No you can't code it to open another tab because that's a user preference. They might not have tabs (if they're using IE6 for instance) or they might have tabs disabled. You're better not forcing a new window or a new tab at all - let the user decide if they want links to open in a new tab or window. It's bad for accessibility and can be annoying for people. There are few exceptions such as if you've got a help link for a complex form - then you'd want it opening in a new small window.

If you absolutely insist on opening new windows then you should use Javascript to do it like this: 

<a href="some.html" onclick="return ! window.open(this.href);"> some place</a>


That way, if they have popups or new windows disabled (as I do) they'll get the link opening in the same window. If Javascript is switched off it reverts to a normal link.



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 8:04:24)

quote:

In the past, I've typically coded gone with Jaybee's convention of having external links open in a new browser window.
Being a woman and therefore able to change my mind at the drop of a hat..... and taking into account tabbed browsers I no longer open in new windows.

I now subscribe to the view that if your site isn't interesting enough for the visitor to want to come back to then you shouldn't force them to do it.

Plus it's irritating the heck out of me when some sites open everything in new windows and you suddenly find your taskbar is full up.

Plus it's less work. [:D]

Joking aside, the more you learn about accessibility, the less you want to open new windows and confuse the heck out of people. If you must open a new window, and there are occasions where it makes sense, such as music to play whilst surfing or instructions to read whilst working on a page, then use the title tag to tell people what you're doing.



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 9:24:04)

i think jaybee means the title attribute ;)
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 9:40:53)

Jaybee is zonked due to a very bad night with not much sleep so she could mean absolutely anything. [:D]

Use the title thing.



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 13:10:33)

have you got twins too? ;)



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 13:16:30)

No cats. One of whom has decided 2.30 am is a very good time to want to go outside for a pee, howls, screams and bashes you round the face till you give in. He then refuses to come back for at least an hour and when he does, comes to say thank you by curling up next to you, freezing cold and usually wet.



rodaniel -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/10/2007 18:49:52)

Yup, yup, the TITLE attribute is the thing that I've only recently discovered. I kinda equate it to the ALT attribute on an image tag. Very handy indeed, even aside from the accessibility pluses.

Rob
www.2Dolphins.com



MCD -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/11/2007 10:38:50)

I usually have PDF files open in new windows because there is no navigation on those pages. If I don't, most people will close out the window instead of using the back button thus closing their browser completely.



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/11/2007 11:08:13)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MCD

I usually have PDF files open in new windows because there is no navigation on those pages. If I don't, most people will close out the window instead of using the back button thus closing their browser completely.

Very true. I do that regularly. Close the window and think ohhh.............



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/11/2007 13:15:25)

luckily firefox now has the recently closed tabs in the history... ('pinched' from opera from way back...) :)



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/11/2007 13:32:04)


quote:

ORIGINAL: d a v e

luckily firefox now has the recently closed tabs in the history... ('pinched' from opera from way back...) :)

Not if you have it set to clear your history every time you close the browser. [&:]



d a v e -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/11/2007 13:44:16)

ah yes ;)
i also do this though ( i mean close the browser window, and set new windows for pdfs)



jaybee -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/14/2007 13:38:40)

Here's an interesting take on the new window thing. It should also appeal to the more gadget driven members of this forum. (men)

http://www.tjkdesign.com/
Scroll down to the bottom of the page.



anderskorte -> RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") (1/14/2007 13:56:33)

I still don't like new windows. The main reason is that in many browsers they can't be avoided. There isn't any semantic reason for new browser windows either.

On the other hand, I've learned that web business isn't that idealistic (despite the W3C wanting so). There are times when you're better off breaking the standards and semantics if it helps your client or the user experience of your site.



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