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anderskorte
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Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 3/11/2005 3:45:01
There has been discussion over if new browser windows should be opened for certain links.
Let's see what Nielsen has to say about this:
quote:
9. Opening New Browser Windows
Opening up new browser windows is like a vacuum cleaner sales person who starts a visit by emptying an ash tray on the customer's carpet. Don't pollute my screen with any more windows, thanks (particularly since current operating systems have miserable window management).
Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine, the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the Back button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out Back button.
Links that don't behave as expected undermine users' understanding of their own system. A link should be a simple hypertext reference that replaces the current page with new content. Users hate unwarranted pop-up windows. When they want the destination to appear in a new page, they can use their browser's "open in new window" command -- assuming, of course, that the link is not a piece of code that interferes with the browser’s standard behavior.
(emphasis by me)
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html
I'm quoting this only because I share the same opinion.
Don't open new windows, even for offsite links. Why? Because we don't want them. You, as a web designer, may want to open them but I don't see how viewers benefit from it. Instead, not everyone is using Internet Explorer on fast computer with a Windows XP window manager at 1152x864 with cascading-ordered windows and grouped items in the taskbar. They may be using interfaces that better adjust to their needs and working habits.
It's a pain browsing the web, for example, with Mozilla under Fluxbox (on Linux) when new windows are popping up right after I have adjusted the current window to my preferences.
Remember that on many browsers the spawning of new browser windows can't be avoided.
Web Design is not interface design. So please don't alter the user's interface with target="_blank". It's better to let the user decide, so that we avoid unnecessary pain caused for many viewers. On the contrary, leaving the target attribute off shouldn't cause any problems for your website.
anders
< Message edited by anderskorte -- 3/12/2005 12:01:04 >
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d a v e
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 3/30/2005 23:19:09
imo you just have to be consistent and decide when a new window *can* be a good idea, though they can be annoying ;)
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 3/31/2005 1:26:18
quote:
ORIGINAL: rdouglass
quote:
Web Design is not interface design.
Don't take this personally but I think your argument was really damaged by that statement. You were doing great up until that point.
Of course I don't take personally.  I sometimes like to write a bit more controlversial stuff like this.
I agree what you said there. But what I really meant is that people use different kinds of interfaces. Period. It's impossible to predict what kinds of window managers or special user agents they're using.
If they're on Windows using IE or Mozilla, for instance, this isn't a problem. New windows may just be a small annoyance for them, not an accessibility problem.
So, if you open new windows and in this way alter the users' UI you sort of assume that they're using some certain type of interface, maybe something similar to Windows or KDE on Linux. There is the danger that you rule out those who use some special interface you have never even heard of, or use extraordinary preferences. The sad thing is that these are usually people with disabilities who already find it difficult to browse the web, even without new windows popping up.
You're also assuming that the users can't open new windows themselves, even if they want to.
But if you're absolutely aware of what you're doing then go ahead, it won't make your website any worse. Most of the tech people here are a lot more experienced than I am, and you sure know what you're doing. I also tend to think that new windows are very handy for e.g. quick help items on web pages.
But if you open new windows, make sure to inform the user, so I know to open it in a tab instead.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rdouglass
Isn't that WHY browsers support multiple windows?
Oh. I always thought browsers support new windows because the spec says, if the target frame doesn't exist, the link should open in a new window.
< Message edited by anderskorte -- 3/31/2005 1:35:57 >
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 3/31/2005 6:46:53
you also remember that no matter how much more vastly experienced and authorised neilsen is than me he can be a bit anal :) some (Windows) users particularly *are* used to multiple windows and they probably don't know how to open a new window or tab, so while i mostly respect and agree with the big N i would still make up my own mind on whether a site warrants its use.
as jaybee pointed out it's a valid option as long as you remember to *inform* the user that a new window will open.
to be honest as well i haven't really made my mind up completely on this issue either and it's an interesting point.
and as for external/off site links (i.e. those opening other sites) that's also a bit of a conundrum. :)
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 4/12/2005 7:41:37
quote:
ORIGINAL: d a v e
...some (Windows) users particularly *are* used to multiple windows and they probably don't know how to open a new window or tab...
Bah... I'm not. ;) I hate it when I'm on Fluxbox in Linux and right after I have given a specific title for the browsing window and made it as I like it, a new window pops up. Then I have to target the [x] button with my mouse, go back and open the link in a new tab instead. Window managing in Black/Flux/Openbox isn't the best one afterall. I sometimes spend not longer than 5 seconds on a website, but the site author hasn't realized that I jump through a lot of pages pretty fast and don't really care to stay on their lovely website.
Web design is just politics. For me, new windows are more a pain than pleasure.
And yes, Nielsen isn't the most reliable guru in all situations.
quote:
...that's also a bit of a conundrum. :) Whoa! A new word.
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anderskorte
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 4/14/2005 6:34:28
quote:
As Im new to web design I designed my work site without links opening into new windows then rethought it after hearing peoples views,, now getting all confused again.
Yes, that's what web design is, always choosing between bad and just a little less bad. :)
Well there are situations when you just *have* to open new windows, like on some quick help items, image description etc. It very much depends, though. But I don't understand why people would want new windows to jump without asking. Those complaining about new windows *not* popping up must be those IE/Windows users on super fast machines and a lot of free time.
It's best just to use common sense. I started this thread only because clearly many web designers don't even know about this new window problem and use target="_blank" even for regular insite links. So you have to wake them up a bit every now and then, like some web designers more experienced than me have waken me up sometimes.
The problem once again is simply here: If you define target="_blank", people can't open it in the same window. But if you don't define it, they can open it where they want.
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 4/14/2005 8:56:13
quote:
Within a site; new pages open within the existing window
External links: open in a new window I do the same. BTW, did you ever click an ad from this site? opens in the SAME window - apparently Thomas has confidence his viewers will come back - frankly, that is usually the motivation for opening new window - fear the viewer will be gone forever.
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 4/14/2005 9:54:46
also target="_blank" won't validate with a strict doctype...
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rodaniel
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/10/2007 5:01:59
I've recently begun a major site overhaul and decided maybe it was time to revisit this topic also.
In the past, I've typically coded gone with Jaybee's convention of having external links open in a new browser window. I got into the habit of doing this to make sure that the visitor wasn't leaving my site just because I gave a link to some other site. Y'know, trying to work on the 'sticky' aspect of webdev that used to be all the buzz.
So, my hyperlinks generally look like this:
<A TARGET="_blank" HREF="http://www.2dolphins.com">2Dolphins</A> I never gave this much thought since I practically never use any browser other than Microsoft's Internet Explorer.
(I know, I know, shame on me for 'developing' web pages without testing in other browsers and/or platforms. But I'm an novice, so cut me some slack! At least I finally did get moved away from using frames!)
But now with tabbed interfaces available with the most common browsers, I wondered if there's a cleaner way to handle this...
Ideally, I'd like to achieve the same results as you get when you do a wheel-click in IE 7 - that is, open the link in another tab, but not redirect the focus to that tab. (Man, I do love that feature of IE 7!)
Is there a reasonably easy way to code external links to target another tab in the same browser window rather than opening a whole separate browser?
Oh, by the way, I just recently discovered the TITLE tag for giving more info about a link (I did mention I was a rookie, right?) and this is just awesome!
Rob
www.2Dolphins.com
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Tailslide
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/10/2007 6:04:28
No you can't code it to open another tab because that's a user preference. They might not have tabs (if they're using IE6 for instance) or they might have tabs disabled. You're better not forcing a new window or a new tab at all - let the user decide if they want links to open in a new tab or window. It's bad for accessibility and can be annoying for people. There are few exceptions such as if you've got a help link for a complex form - then you'd want it opening in a new small window.
If you absolutely insist on opening new windows then you should use Javascript to do it like this:
<a href="some.html" onclick="return ! window.open(this.href);"> some place</a>
That way, if they have popups or new windows disabled (as I do) they'll get the link opening in the same window. If Javascript is switched off it reverts to a normal link.
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/10/2007 13:10:33
have you got twins too? ;)
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/10/2007 18:49:52
Yup, yup, the TITLE attribute is the thing that I've only recently discovered. I kinda equate it to the ALT attribute on an image tag. Very handy indeed, even aside from the accessibility pluses.
Rob
www.2Dolphins.com
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MCD
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/11/2007 10:38:50
I usually have PDF files open in new windows because there is no navigation on those pages. If I don't, most people will close out the window instead of using the back button thus closing their browser completely.
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/11/2007 13:15:25
luckily firefox now has the recently closed tabs in the history... ('pinched' from opera from way back...) :)
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/11/2007 13:44:16
ah yes ;)
i also do this though ( i mean close the browser window, and set new windows for pdfs)
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RE: Opening new windows (target="_blank") - 1/14/2007 13:56:33
I still don't like new windows. The main reason is that in many browsers they can't be avoided. There isn't any semantic reason for new browser windows either.
On the other hand, I've learned that web business isn't that idealistic (despite the W3C wanting so). There are times when you're better off breaking the standards and semantics if it helps your client or the user experience of your site.
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