Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (Full Version)

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Nicole -> Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 6:56:05)

I’m working on a very large site at the moment and will be struggling to have it completed by the date I initially said it’d be completed by. In the meantime I’ve managed to complete another job which was completed on time but only just (due to complications making it comply with Netscape 4…….yeah I know!), and since before Christmas I’ve been asked by the client I’m doing the big site for, to quote for an upcoming job which is right up my alley (community organisation, and could be worth a few dollars).

With little time on my hands, I’ve only today re-read the technical requirements of the proposed site, and while most of it is suitable to me, I’m quickly realising I can’t learn things like including message boards and a chatroom in time. I may be talking myself out of quoting for this job, but get this:

This new job is a site for a group of community service organisations, to advertise their services and communicate with each other. Since being initially told about the job, this sub-committee have had technical requirements drawn up by some bright spark friend of a friend, it equates to a nine page document. It reads really well, explains fully what features are needed and why they’re needed, but then it goes into a couple of costing estimates from a couple of web hosts and web designers that this bright spark decided to quickly look up online.

In brief, the requirements of this potential clients site include: up to 50 pages, navigation menu, new look graphics, W3C validation, complete accessibility to Australian standards, bulletin board, discussion forum, chat function, SEO and registration, online forms, pdf & doc downloads etc…

One of the 3 web design cost estimated the bright spark has supplied comes in at $2000 ($1600US), the next is $3300 and then $5500. Bear in mine that this is for a sub-committee of internet novices, one of them knows someone who’s website cost $700 and another is my current client who has no idea I’m undercharging them and have given them discount after discount just to get started with my business.

The $2000 quote is for a company which doesn’t cross-browser check (I’ve checked), and also doesn’t comply even remotely with any standards.

What chance do I have of submitting a quote based only on the things I know I can do, with some scope to learning as I go, and trying to explain if necessary that the things they require cost money, much more than the quotes included in the technical requirements they’ve had drawn up?

Hope I’ve made sense.



jaybee -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 7:02:28)

If I were you, I'd go back and tell them you'd love to do it but unfortunately you're far too busy.

That one sounds like you'll be on a hiding to nothing.

You try finding a board, forum and chat that validate. If you can then I bet they won't meet the AU accessibility laws.

Add to that a whole load of people who know people....... Arrrgh!

quote:

comply with Netscape 4


Don't even attempt it. As long as you use css then it should degrade gracefully. Trying to make it look identical is a mugs game. (unless you're bored) [;)]



Nicole -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 7:08:36)

LOL!

I think so too Jaybee, but I think i'll still quote for what i CAN do, and my quote will include some profit. Who knows if they give it to me then i might learn how to do some things i don't currently know how.

p.s. You were too quick for me, I only went to do the dishes and came back to edit that post to say that "Bright Spark" is a consultant and is not a web designer that'll be quoting himself, but i guess you knew that anyway.

Nicole



jaybee -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 7:16:51)

Personally I wouldn't touch it.

If you only quote for what you can do now you may be doing yourself out of work later on down the line. If any of them need something and your name comes up it'll be with the proviso that "She can't do those sort of things" even if that was several years ago and you now can.

If you go back and tell them you're too busy it leaves them with the impression that you're really good and in demand.

The current site you're doing which is really cheap. Is this for someone you know well? If so, tell her that you did it for her at mates rates and that your normal charges would be much higher.



Taz -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 7:42:18)

/sides with Jaybee's words of wisdom



dpf -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 9:44:21)

quote:

I’ve been asked by the client I’m doing the big site for, to quote for an upcoming job
I support what jaybee said but I might go a step further - obviously those quotes are way to low to do the job according to those tight specs and I would tell that to my client - and why. To me, the strict requirement for validation of everything adds huge amounts to the job and I would at least state that opinion along with a caution as to how to check that it actually does validate.



caz -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 10:33:33)

If you really don't want to pass up quoting for this job ( and designing for a committee is guaranteed to lose you some sleep, hair whatever ), then can you break all this:

quote:

In brief, the requirements of this potential clients site include: up to 50 pages, navigation menu, new look graphics, W3C validation, complete accessibility to Australian standards, bulletin board, discussion forum, chat function, SEO and registration, online forms, pdf & doc downloads etc…


into manageable stages and quote for discrete blocks with staged payments throughout. I would say something along the lines of designing the main site to accessibility standards and not proceeding with the frilly bits, such as chat, forums and bulletin boards until the site design is "stable" . ( And you have been paid for it.)[;)]

Then the extra bits can be done and paid for individually, also giving you time to experiment.

Oh yes, consultants? No good at their original jobs, but good at telling other people what to do at an exhorbitant fee...I remember management consultants who couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag.


Cheers
Carol



Nicole -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 15:04:52)

Thanks Gill, Dan and Caz,

quote:

The current site you're doing which is really cheap. Is this for someone you know well? If so, tell her that you did it for her at mates rates and that your normal charges would be much higher.


I do know her well, she's my ex-boss and kind of a friend/acquaintance, and i also know her well enough to talk about our personal lives and interests with. I also know she has political links and community service links i may need in the future, and i also know she's trying as much as she can within reason, to help me out with potential clients.

It's also not so much a case of her job being ultra cheap, if it was the only job i was doing at the time the quote was in the reasonable to cheap bracket bearing in mind I know her, I needed the work, I'm starting out and am learning as i go about some things. That other job did drag on a bit, but i also liked doing it and learnt some things along the way, i didn't want to knock it back and it was extra income. The Netscape 4 problem was insightful and something i think i'll remember forever. But i now find myself working at least 12 hour days, i'm up this morning at 4am for instance. I did manage to slip into conversation what a bargain she was getting, but i don't think she realises and it could be a case of give them an inch and they take a mile.

Thanks to Dan and Caz also, i like both suggestions and as i feel deep down that i should quote for this project, i think i'll split it into stages as Caz suggests, adding Dan's reasoning as to why i'd do that. They also envisage the site starting out small and increasing with new services in the long term, personally i find it off putting to see a small site with all these features (one i didn't mention was a comprehensive search by category feature, which in my opinion only works well once the site has at least 100 different linked sites, otherwise it looks empty when nothing matches the search criteria), and i may go the whole hog and explain that to them.

I may even pick parts of their technical requirements document to pieces in respect to those useless prices they included and explain in detail how validation and accessibility especially can take a lot of time to achieve. I just don't know until i make a phone call today whether having a copy of these requirements is a privilege my current client has given me without the knowledge of this sub-committee, and therefore whether i can make mention of it in my quote.

It's been a very hectic introduction to web design as a business, with all that we've also had a major health scare in our family with my fiance's mother, we've almost been evicted from our apartment, only days of lost productivity corresponding back and forth with our rogue real estate and the owner who had no idea of the eviction notice being served and was livid at the real estate agent for doing that without his authorisation, plus the worry of both those issues, i think if i can get through this little phase unscathed then i'll be much more prepared for anything in the future.

Thanks for your comments in a thread i was only really intending as a vent about a big mouth idiot consultant! lol.

Nicole



Nicole -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 15:09:33)

Only one typo (now corrected) in that long post!

Maybe i should start work at 4am every day?



Taz -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/5/2005 17:19:07)

The mind works best first thing in the morning. ;)

(Add a few gallons of coffee and it's supercharged!) [8D]

Hope it all goes well one way or the other, sounds like you deserve a break. (:



dpf -> RE: Has Bright Spark Ruined My Chances? (4/6/2005 7:09:06)

quote:

I may even pick parts of their technical requirements document to pieces in respect to those useless prices they included and explain in detail how validation and accessibility especially can take a lot of time to achieve. I just don't know until i make a phone call today whether having a copy of these requirements is a privilege my current client has given me without the knowledge of this sub-committee, and therefore whether i can make mention of it in my quote.
Nicole: I think that is a very sound strategy! the second part, frankly, is bizarre! how can they solicit bids and hide the specs?



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