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d a v e
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 7:13:31
in addition to jaybee's good advice (i was still on page 1 of this thread and was putting the same thing in my reply;) this is a good book to dip into (the whole thing is free and online)
http://www.joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/
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womble
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 8:13:16
I too love a good debate!
I have to admit my own site isn’t truly accessible, mainly because I’m only just starting out in web design and given the timescales I was given to work with by the rest of the committee (we need it done yesterday), as I was only just getting my head round the ins and outs of HTML rather than letting FP do all the work, and hadn’t got to grips with CSS etc, my solution was a compromise. It’s a relatively small site, so doing a text only version of it as well wasn’t too much of a problem.
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- How come MSN (and every other large corp) does not abide to these accessibility standards?
Ignorance? My bet though would be that as long as the money keeps rolling in they don’t care.
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- Why should I spend time/money making my site accessible, if the turn around does not make it worth it?
Okay, in business you always have to look at the bottom like, but like Tony says, we should do it because it's the right thing to do not simply to avoid lawsuits.
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- Why build websites for all legacy browsers, Netscape 3.2, MSIE 4.0, etc. ?
Interesting point, and this is one I’m battling with at the moment. The first version of my site isn’t fully accessible. I’ve used layout tables to keep the columns neat and to stop the graphics wandering all over the place, but just as soon as I get a chance I’m going to be reworking my site to make it more accessible. The question is, do I use strict XHTML and CSS, making my site potentially inaccessible to those using legacy browsers, or do I compromise and use transitional XHTML and lose the benefits of using CSS?
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- Why do only some of the walk/stop signals at crosswalks have sounds? And others do not? Maybe it is because it isn't worth the time?
I can only presume that again it’s financial, though here in the UK when local authorities put in new crossings they should know better than not to have sounds.
And on to Donkey’s comments….
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like dpf I'm a bit mutton
Well, you’d got us all fooled there Donkey, thinking you were an equine. Now we find you’re related to Spooky! 
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in the UK we are quick to categorise even the slightest disability and make special provisions for the disabled person that in some cases are not necessary.
Interesting point. I recently started a poll on a forum I’m a moderator on for the neurological condition that’s caused me a lot of my problems, asking if people considered themselves to be disabled, and opened a right can of worms! The official definition according to the DDA is “a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities." Now obviously that’s open to interpretation up to a point, because then, how do you define ‘substantial’? but, the Act does also provide guidance on what constitutes a substantial effect. Yes, there are ‘PC’ councils etc out there who make ridiculously ill-informed decisions and in doing so often negate the positive steps that legislation like the DDA is trying to implement, but they need educating just as much, if not more so, than the general public.
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awarded an orange disabled sticker so he could park virtually anywhere without paying.
In the vast majority of car parks now, having a blue badge (they changed the colour) doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay. It just means that you get to park closer to the shop or whatever. But, you can’t necessarily tell just from looking at someone whether they do have a genuine disability, and yes, people do make judgements just on what they see. You say disability and they expect someone to be in a wheelchair, or using a walking stick. An ex-colleague of mine has a blue badge, though she looks perfectly healthy. She can walk. She’s only in her thirties. She looks fine. But, she has a serious heart problem and is waiting to have a triple bypass. If she walks more than 50 yards or so without stopping she gets severe angina. In part it’s a matter of educating people, and I think that kids these days are taught a lot more in school about disability. In part I suppose it’s because disabled children these days are more likely to be in mainstream education, rather than hidden away in ‘special’ schools, so children grow up with more experience of disabled people. Of course the other problem is that the system is open to abuse; GPs who will happy sign a patients application form just to keep them quiet and out of the surgery.
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I think we are in danger of the same sort of thing happening on line, the majority finding they are de-prioritised in favour of the pseudo-disabled people like someone with very slight colour blindness.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “the majority finding they are de-prioritised”, this though, is I think is where the biggest problem lies, with the pseudo-disabled as you put it (actually I quite like that description). One of the biggest potential problems that disabled people face is those who see illness or a slight physical problem as an easy way to get what they want. Take for example the proposed crack-down on Incapacity Benefit. There are so many who abuse the system by claiming they’re incapable of work when in reality they don’t want to work, that the government’s talking about cracking down on incapacity benefit and making it a flat rate payment for all new claimants, rather than the current tiered system whereby there are different rates. Okay they may have a problem, but it may often be less serious than they make out, but tThe fact is though that there is government support if you know where to look for it to help disabled people get back into work, and that, if the system was working right, should weed out those genuinely unable to work from the ones who simply don’t want to.
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For instance if I were totally blind and profoundly deaf how could I be given equal access to any web site?
Like Tony says, there’s a limit to what you can do, and someone with that level of disability would in all probability have some sort of support package in place, for example a carer, who could access websites on their behalf.
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So once you recognise that there is a limit to this, who decides where the limit is set? It is all very well trying for "universal access" but the economic considerations cannot be ignored. This all has a price, and someone has to pay for it.
This is where the DDA comes in again. Under the DDA service providers and businesses are required to make ‘reasonable adjustments’. So it is recognised that what’s appropriate for a large multi-national may not be feasible when it comes to a small trader. Having said that, I’m not sure where the law stands on websites though, because in the main, reasonable adjustments relates to physical changes.
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We should do it because it's the right thing to do not simply to avoid lawsuits, however I'd be naive if I said that is probably not what's on most CEO's minds when they consider disability and web accessibility.
I agree entirely, and much as we’d like it to be, the world’s never going to be perfect.
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One thing for sure is that past experience plays a very important role when taking a side with the accessibility issue.
True. I was born with a congenital condition, which up until my teenage years caused me very few problems. Even once I started having more problems, I didn’t consider myself disabled. I could still do most things. Okay, on a bad day I couldn’t walk too far, but I planned my life around the good days. Then, around four years ago, things got worse, and I had to admit that things I’d been able to do in the past I could no longer do and I also started losing hearing and some vision. I have a blue badge, though it took my district nurse about three years to persuade me that I ought to apply for one. It took her even longer to persuade me I should claim DLA. I hate the ‘disabled’ label. I’m me first, and yes, my disabilities are part of who I am, but it’s not the most important thing about me. In the end it’s just semantics. To say I’m disabled is a lot quicker than trying to explain my medical conditions, and those who know me know that the day-to-day problems I have are just part of me being me.
Like Tony I’ve seen the impact of, often unintentional, discrimination against disabled people. Most often, discrimination comes from a lack of understanding, but like Tony says, it needn’t be that difficult to implement. Okay, they’re big organisations, but organisation’s such as the RNID and RNIB both have accessible sites which still have graphics, still look good, but they’re accessible to people with special requirements.
I know I’ve rambled on quite enough, and well done if you’re still awake at this point, and I was going to launch into my equal opps speech, but I’ll spare you from that! 
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Donkey
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 9:47:50
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I tend to do the site, validate locally for XHTML and CSS, then when clean, upload and validate WAI. Sounds like a plan. Thanks, I'll try that way.
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I hate the ‘disabled’ label. I’m me first, and yes, my disabilities are part of who I am, but it’s not the most important thing about me. I know how you feel, I'm diabetic and I hate the way the medical profession seem to want to turn it into a hobby, expecting you to join clubs and share experience etc, I hate all that rubbish. Talking to other sufferers is incredibly depressing especially when they start describing symptoms that they have and you don't. I'm not "a diabetic" I'm a person who amongst everything else in their life has diabetes. All I want to know is how to manage it so that I don't go blind and my feet don't drop off, it's not going to take over my life.
< Message edited by Donkey -- 4/9/2005 9:59:01 >
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dpf
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 10:25:24
Iagree donkey. and to me, its like people who turn off javascript - there are consequences to that and yours isnt the first site that they have trouble with - its part of their normal browsing experience
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womble
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 10:25:35
Thanks jaybee, that's answered that little query for me.
Unfortunately it's going to take me longer than I'd like to redo my site as I'm going into hospital at the end of the month for minor brain surgery, so I'm likely to be out of action for a while, but at least I can take my trusty XHTML/CSS book with me to while away the boring hours in hospital and start thinking about how it'll work in practice.
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dpf
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 10:26:21
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end of the month for minor brain surgery I wish you all the best on that - hurry back
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Shirley
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 10:34:25
I recently created a fundraising site for a large rehabilitation institute that is part of a major medical center. They do wonderful work with children and adults.
When I asked what accessibility requirements they had, they did not seem to know what I was talking about. Granted I was working with the fund raising dept. and not the education or training departments but I guess my point is webmasters are not the only ones in need of education on the subject.
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womble
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 10:59:52
Thanks dan and jaybee.
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Are you sure you want to do that? I wouldn't chance it. You'll have a hole in your head that your brain might try and escape through! 
Hope the op isn't too big a deal. How long will you be in for?
I didn't think of that. It could work the other way though and all the info might get into my head quicker!
Hopefully I should only be hospital for 3-4 days, which is actually pretty amazing, but then of course there's the recovery time after that. Last year when I had a similar op I was in for 3 days and the day afterwards I was up and around at 8am sitting in the smoking room with a coffee and a ciggie, thinking 'wow! I had brain surgery yesterday!' A pretty weird feeling!
I have a weird and quite rare condition called idiopathic intracranial hypertension that basically means that my body produces too much cerebrospinal fluid which squishes my brain and causes quite a few problems, incvluding compressing the optic and auditory nerves, which is what's caused my vision and hearing problems. Having said that my neurosurgeon now says I could also have some form of hydrocephalus as well, as I was born with a mild form of spina bifida.
Last year I had a ventriculo-peritoneal shunt put in (one end's in my head and the other goes into my abdomen) to drain the excess fluid, but unfortunately it's not working properly now so I've either got to have part of it replaced or switch to a different type that goes in the spine - which of course may well cause extra problems with the spina bifida. The surgeon's trying to be optomistic and is going to try and fix the one I've got first, and if it's not easily fixable, then switch to the other sort. So basically I won't know until I come round what they've done - I could have just a sore head, or a sore head and a sore back!
All of this medical stuff's really frustrating because I can't get on with all the stuff I want to do, like the website. Though as I've been spending so much time hanging around here I've been rather neglecting my moderator duties on the IIH forum, so much so that I'm now getting messages from forum members asking if I'm okay because they haven't seen me around - I really ought to put in an appearance there!
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womble
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 11:34:37
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I've got a length of hosepipe that I could let you have. It's one of the special wide ones and comes in a fetching shade of green. It's around 10 feet long so you could use what you need and keep the rest for spares.
I may have to take you up on that offer. Luckily I like green.
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 11:37:52
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If you design with accessibility in mind in the first place you only need to do a text based version for things you can't make accessible any other way. However, I have seen many large sites that do have text alternatives.
- So then websites that were created when accessibility issues were not known to them, should have to redo their entire site? I couldn't image places like MSN, or even Outfront having a text only site. What's moral about that?
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People with disabilities, especially severe disabilities, are often housebound and look on the internet as their way of getting to the outside world. Apart from the moral standpoint, businesses need to realise that not making sites accessible is losing them custom.
- Businesses are here to make money, and those that want to make money, spend money on things that most benefit them. If they were to spend extra money to focus on their less than .00001% of their customer base, that wouldn't be a good business decision.
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I also don't think that the example you gave above of the airline is frivolous. Why should the guy have to pay full whack or get someone sighted to do it for him?
- First person I heard that didn't think it was frivolous, even the person that has your viewpoint (she raises a child with a severe disibility) thought it was frivolous. Why should the airline have to pay for something they did not cause? What if someone came here to OT, and couldn't navigate the site. They would sue Thomas for this? Sounds like a lame way to get money.
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Okay, in business you always have to look at the bottom like, but like Tony says, we should do it because it's the right thing to do not simply to avoid lawsuits.
- It is the moral thing to do, but I don't think it is always the right thing. In most cases, it is not even worth it to make the site accessible.
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I can only presume that again it’s financial, though here in the UK when local authorities put in new crossings they should know better than not to have sounds.
- Using Jaybee's logic about the airplane lawsuit, a blind person could walk up to a crosswalk, notice there is no sound at all, and sue the city. What's moral about that?
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and much as we’d like it to be, the world’s never going to be perfect.
- Nobody will ever be treated as equal, even with affirmative action programs 
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I've never seen a Netscape 4 user turn up on any of my sites apart from the early sites when it was me doing checking. I too have stopped testing with the older browsers
- So according to the logic of the airplane lawsuit, a NS4 user could complain that the website is not accessible for them, and sue, right?
Does anyone have links to accessibility standards that detail what needs to be done? How can we be safe, without a place that says everything that must be done just for accessibility?
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dpf
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 12:17:03
bobby: try looking at it this way.. in the past, no one built buildings that were wheel chair accessible - no one thought of it! In time, things changed - including laws! now, you cannot build a public building that isnt wheel chair accessible and wouldnt think of doing it. the airlaines actually have wheel chairs available at no charge. is that a smart "business decision"? I dont know but it has gone beyond that - its courtesy, inclusiveness and decent. and yes, sometimes expensive
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 12:19:34
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disappointed that anyone could care so little for other human beings who are less fortunate than themselves.
- Who said that? Let's carry on a reasonable conversation, if anyone cannot do that, I would hope they won't get involved in this.
I sure hope we are never required to make websites with everything listed in: http://www.makoa.org/web-design.htm . That would take so much more time than I thought it would.
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 12:29:13
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try looking at it this way.. in the past, no one built buildings that were wheel chair accessible - no one thought of it! In time, things changed - including laws! now, you cannot build a public building that isnt wheel chair accessible and wouldnt think of doing it. the airlaines actually have wheel chairs available at no charge. is that a smart "business decision"? I dont know but it has gone beyond that - its courtesy, inclusiveness and decent. and yes, sometimes expensive
- I totally understand that. The wheel chair accessible stuff is great. The thing is, there are a lot more people in wheelchairs, than there are that are blind, or cannot move their hands. What about them? Are people in wheelcharis favored? I just don't agree that we should be mandated to follow everything (accessibility).
Let's say that Joe speaks Chinese, and he has a disability that does not let him learn another language. He could goto an English website, and sue because they did not offer a Chinese version. Same concept as the airline lawsuit.
I do most of this stuff by habit, but that doesn't mean some money hungry person could come along and sue me because I don't offfer a text based version of my site- that is just stupid.
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Non-Profit
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 12:49:17
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Let's say that Joe speaks Chinese, and he has a disability that does not let him learn another language. He could goto an English website, and sue because they did not offer a Chinese version. Same concept as the airline lawsuit.
What happened to wanting reasonable conversation? I mean, we can all play the "What if..." game and come up with outrageous scenarios. If the above kind of lawsuit has ever been brought I will apologize but I think that that's unlikely. What kind of disability are you thinking that "Joe" has?
Tony
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Accessibility? Do we need to spend the extra money? - 4/9/2005 12:58:56
No clue what it would be, but it is something that I am sure someone has, basically Joe just had an issue with memory.
I agree the scenario is an extreme, but that's what you have to look at. Not just from my viewpoint, but from the other as well. What are people with disibilities to do, if nobody at all helps them? It isn't fair for them to not be included in average things, but is it fair to make web designers spend extra time/money to include a certain user group that makes up almost zero of their user base? From the business standpoint is makes no sense, but it is still the moral thing to do.
I am just trying to give example situations so you can see how illogic this can be. Of course it might be logical in a few situations (like with having wheel chair accessible area), but some things just don't make sense; like the crosswalk signal, someone who sues over a website not making it available in their own language, and someone that uses a screen reader, that cannot view airline rates.
Here is another example. I goto Walmart, the isles were just reconstructed because they had to make them wheelchair accessible for 28 inches. However, I come with a wheelchair that is 30 inches wide, I cannot fit it through the aisle. Does walmart have to reconstruct their aisle?
What happens if someone who is overweight (too big to fit through the aisle), can he sue because the isle is not large enough for him?
[edit]Just noticed I spelled every aisle as isle lol . Talking about aisles, not islands  [/edit]
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 4/9/2005 13:08:07 >
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