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metrov
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Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 12:53:53
I just spent $400+ to buy DreamweaverMX 2004. It still drives me as crazy as earlier versions. Trying to adjust table and cells to the correct dimensions is a nightmare. The program does not behave. It should be so simple to do these things, yet I wrestle for hours trying to create the simplest pages.
Can you guys confirm that FrontPage works any better? FrontPage seemed to disappear for several years, and Dreamweaver took the forefront. But now I'm seeing FrontPage pop up more and more. Has Microsoft made considerable improvements? Should I switch?
Thanks a million
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dpf
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 13:59:45
quote:
Personally I prefer FP over DW hands down my preference is reverse - but either way, you have learning to do. what exactly are your problems with the tables? tables can be quirky even in pure html.
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 14:23:57
I know how to code basic html and a few other nuggets here and there. And, yes, it would be preferrable to hand code everything, I just don't have the time. I've been doing this a long time. It's just astounding to me that Dreamweaver's been around so long, and the same diffculties exist -- help says just drag a table to re-size. However, one often has to use nested tables, mostly to pad text. I have, and still do, spend hours just trying to get the tables to cooperate, stay the size I want them. Sometimes they won't re-size at all. Sometimes, they just won't go to the exact size you want them. Sometimes you get them perfect, then look in a browser, and they are completely different. These programs are supposed to make my work faster and more effecient. Seems like they could get it right one of these days. Maybe now that Macromedia's been bought by Adobe, Adobe will figure it out. But I doubt it.
There are lots of little tricks to getting tables/cells to behave. Sometimes they work, sometimes not.
Thanks for your replies.
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dpf
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 16:58:34
quote:
one often has to use nested tables, mostly to pad text. thats what cellpading is for - not nesting tables
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Dan
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 19:37:46
Let's say I've created a table with several rows and columns. This table has no cell padding because I need my graphics to go all the way to the edge of any particular cell. However, right in the middle of all this, I need some text. Of course, I don't want the text to go all the way to the edge of the cell because it would be most likely crammed up against a graphic...so I need cell padding to give the text some space from the borders -- hence the need for a nested table. One table requires no cell padding, while the other does.
Do you know another way to do this? If so, please share. Thanks
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Shirley
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 20:36:17
everything you want to do can be accomplished with css.
Browse through the css forum and visit some of the tutorial sites.
We will be glad to help with any question you have implementing the css.
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dpf
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 21:19:55
what you are struggling with is not DW limitations but inherent html limitations
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Starhugger
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/21/2005 23:16:01
quote:
ORIGINAL: metrov
I know how to code basic html and a few other nuggets here and there. And, yes, it would be preferrable to hand code everything, I just don't have the time.
Why don't you use DW to get the basic structure, and then hand-code the details? It sounds like you're going to wind up doing that anyway, whether you use DW, FP or just HTML.
Starhugger
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/22/2005 21:02:21
You're right, starhugger. I end up doing that anyway. I guess there's just no such thing as a really good wysiwyg program. I do more wrestling with Dreamweaver than is imaginable. Just today, I spent hours trying to get some text right. Dreamweaver kept making the text BOLD, and there were no bold tags or anything, no<b> or <strong>, yet the text kept coming out bold. I tried building new tables, then a whole new page, then re-starting Dreamweaver, then RE-INSTALLING Dreamweaver. No luck. I was cutting and pasting from Word, btw, which is supposed to be the great new feature of MX 2004. No way. I finally had to re-type a great deal of text from scratch and finally got it to work. These are not limitations of HTML, these are bugs in Dreamweaver. I just wanted to hear some other experiences from people using Dreamweaver. Consensus is, hand code, and NOT in Dreamweaver, coz that doesn't work either. Ok, I'll stop complaining now.
Thanks
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d a v e
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/23/2005 3:26:58
i've had no problems like the ones you seem to have had using dreamweaver! it sounds more like the way you are trying to use DW than DW itself: without more concrete example that we could try and reproduce it's hard to say where the problem lies ;)
i think css could be your friend as pointed out in one of the above posts.
if you have a specific task that you are trying to achieve in DW with a url to an example we could help in more detail. DW is not perfect and it's only a tool in your hands, but i've always found it pretty robust since version 1.0 and from the sounds of it it seems more like the techniques you are using that are causing problems - problems that would happen in any wysiwyg editor.
don't let the frsutration get you! :)
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/23/2005 9:02:47
So you are saying, whenever you need to re-size a table in DW, and you drag one side [as it says in Help] that it goes right to the exact position you want, and stays there and never go WHANGO! i.e. bounces back to original position, or won't move at all, or springs to a much bigger size??? Gosh, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'll have to practice my click and drag techniques. [I don't see how I could post such phenomenon for analysis]. Or if you enter an exact numerical size for the width or height of a cell, it goes right to that size? Often times I'll enter an exact numerical size, and the cell will not change size at all. I don't even know how I'd practice technique for this one.
CSS -- yes, I need to learn more about it. Can I create tables and cells and make them certain sizes, and create nested tables, and such using CSS?
Soon as I get a chance I will study the tutorials as suggested.
Thanks
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d a v e
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/23/2005 12:22:36
i usually resize my tables/cells in the properties inspector rather than dragging and make sure everything adds up in pixels/percentages. you need to make sure that if you specify a cell is going to be bigger/smaller that there is room for it and it is 'propped' open with some content
using css for table layouts means you just assign the width in the style applied to the table/cell.
hope you have better luck :)
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/23/2005 12:33:55
Yes, that's what I meant...change the size in the property inspector. I don't know why, but sometimes I'll change the size, and nothing happens. The codes have the size I input, but the table [in design view] says a different size. Sometimes the table layout specs indicate the code dimensions, then right next to that in parenthesis, it says the actual dimensions. Yet I can't find anything in DW help that actually explains what these numbers mean. I'm looking forward to trying CSS to see if better results are to be had. Thanks!
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d a v e
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/23/2005 16:37:54
also try using normal table mode (View > table mode) rather than layout table mode...
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Nigel
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 12:03:34
What is being described here does not sound like a bug to me but more of an understanding dreamweaver issue.
Dreamweaver won't allow you to resize a table or cell, which may have a knock on effect on the rest of the design i.e. mess it up. I have witnessed what you are describing but the reason has always been a layout related one.
As for the bold/not bold issue I have also come across that. The reason was to do with a stylesheet telling the text to do one thing and the standard html saying another. Could that be the cause?
Nigel
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 12:27:12
Yes, some good points. I have noticed that DW retains style tags even when I thought they'd been deleted. Numerous times I've gone into the code and found multiple style tags for the same text. I had to manually remove them. So that could very well have something to do with the bold issue. Superfluous code has always been the biggest DW complaint from hand coders.
Thanks
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 13:00:50
Metrov, I would use a FP trial and see if it is easier to learn. I know DW was a little hard to get used to, it is very different than most of the office products that a lot of us are used to.
If your concerns regard extra code produced by DW, don't go to FrontPage expecting things to be better. I have noticed on many occasions that FrontPage will have more instances of extra code, than DW.
It sounds like you just need to try out both products and decide which one is easier for you.
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d a v e
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 13:58:16
quote:
Superfluous code has always been the biggest DW complaint from hand coders.
has it?!
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David Prescott
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dpf
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 14:01:16
never, in my experience - I think it's a question of not knowing how to use it. read a manual or take a course. admittedly, their HELP is por
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Nigel
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 15:21:06
As both a Frontpage and Dreamweaver user I see loads of extra code added in frontpage and very little added in Dreamweaver. The little code that dreamweaver adds is usually quite important.
Thats not intented as a criticism of either product. I believe Frontpage has been designed to take away too much heavy coding and make the job of site building easier and in that respect it does a great job. Take the navigation menus for example. Frontpage will create them for you without you having to see any of the code instead you see something called a webot. When you publish the site frontpage will convert it to javascript to implement the code on the server which is what you see if you 'view source' from your browser. Dreamweaver handles things in a different way and allows you to see all the code step by step. If you want to tweak the code it's easier that way.
There is no right or wrong here - it's a matter of personal preference. You can create great websites with either product.
Nigel
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metrov
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RE: Fed Up with Dreamweaver - 4/25/2005 22:50:34
At least DW has a way to clean up its excess code:
COMMANDS/Clean up HTML!
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