Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (Full Version)

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RickP -> Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/26/2005 21:49:39)

After posting my own business site for critiquing last week I received a lot of very valid comments. I agreed with nearly all of them and have acted on most. Here is the final (ish) result – except for making a few checks over the next few days.

What hasn’t changed…
Still HTML 4.01 transitional (for now)
Still uses tables for layout (ditto)
Flash and sound still on intro page! (sorry [:'(] – slight change though – the sound is now OFF by default but can be played if user desires)

Re the banner graphic…
This wasn’t mentioned previously but clearly had to be changed to fit the adjusted look. I’m not sure if it’s right yet – what do you think?

One thing that’s puzzling me…
The blue link bar across the top shouldn’t have a gap above it but it does in all browsers I’ve tested in. Margins and padding are all set to 0 so I am not sure why this is happening – any ideas?

Site here
you may need to refresh once or twice of course - please let me know if you do need to or not - opportunity for testing caching issues

All comments gratefully received as before

Thanks



BobbyDouglas -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/26/2005 23:41:20)

Rick,

1) Your intro page really hurts SE rankings. Unless you plan to drive traffic from SEs, I would take it down. On top of that, if I want to view an into, I would much rather see one as a link on your main page. I want content, not some intro.
2) The main nav on the left would be much quicker if you used CSS to create them. It is very simple to achieve using CSS.
3) The web hosting FAQ link would not sell to a client. In fact, they would be like, "web hosting? whats that?" You shouldn't use the term when you define the term.
4) The site loads very slow, you could speed it up by using gzip compression, or switch to an xhtml/css layout, use both and you will be amazed.
5) I find the nav up top pretty confusing, it took a bit to figure out that it was an actual FAQ section, most links on top of simply a recap of the main nav. When you change from usual to something people have not experienced before, there will be people wondering what's going on.

Other than the above, I like the design. It is clean, simple, and effective. If you consider all of my suggestions, you will end up with a very good site.



Tailslide -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 3:26:48)

Hi again Rick!

The site design is a lot cleaner looking, much more professional than before.

Putting aside all the xhtml/css issues - the only things I'd say are:

1. I agree with BobbyDouglas about the intro page - you want your opening page to be something SEs will love.
2. I know you're not able to spend a lot of time studying right now - but I'd look into putting in <label > tags into the form - it won't take long to do and will make the forms accessible.
3. Back on SEs again - Given the quantity of web designers out there it pays to specify an area - in your case I guess either Medway or Kent. I'd swap your title over so it says something like: Kent website design | Medway websites | On-the-Web-Now! I'd also stick the key phrase in your banner alt tag and preferably in a <h1> tag too!! Find out what your competition is doing.
4. I'd mention that the FAQs will open a new window - even if it's just in the title tag.
5. Oh and <nag> you still need a full DOCTYPE declaration</nag>

I know you're not switching to CSS etc right now - but a final point in it's favour that I just thought of - With CSS you can position your main text (what you really want the SEs to be reading) at the top of the page contents that the SEs will see - so it doesn't have to trawl through navigation etc etc which will dilute your message. SEs pay more attention to stuff towards the top of the page.



womble -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 5:22:22)

I'd pretty much agree with all the above. The site does look a lot more professional and clean looking. On BobbyDouglas's comment on using CSS for your nav on the left hand side, there is infact a 'wizard' that will help you to create a list based navigation system using CSS, and one of the options is pretty similar to the design you've got, and it's not too much work to tweak the design slightly to fit in with your colour scheme - you can find it at - http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/list-o-matic/list-o-matic.asp (using html/css based nav also helps the SEs find the links to your other pages as well).



Nicole -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 6:02:20)

Hi Rick,

Like everyone else so far, i think it looks a lot more professional past the opening page than before. I won't keep on about flash and music on websites, but one last comment, it's a personal preference even moreso than the colour scheme and layout, music especially is something you either like or dislike on a website, say 50% of people like it, then of that 50% some may like classical, others may like rock, some jazz, some country, some may even like elevator music, but i hope from this example you'll perhaps appreciate just how many people may be turning that music off because it's not the sort of music they like to listen to.

Nobody seems to have made any mention that on the second page (the main page), the white bars at the side of your page stop about 2 thirds of the way down? I didn't see these before but i'm now armed with a big screen set at 1280 x 1024, Firefox with text size normal. I'm sorry that I can't take a screen capture of this as I haven't yet downloaded my image editor, but perhaps someone else can do that if you need them to?

I do like the footer info now, it looks a lot neater, though the copyright information is very difficult to read in white on the sky blue background. Also, you have the copyright symbol after your business name?

Terminology links at the top of the page - same as Bobby D has already mentioned, perhaps you could create a new page to list different terms?

You've also mentioned a price on your web design page. I may be wrong, and it's only an opinion, but i'm wondering whether people won't think they need to contact you because the price is already there. What I mean is, if a prospective client is searching the net looking for prices, they may think that's it, no need to contact him, i'll move to the next designer as i already know his price. Also, that 120 pound complete package text looks a bit out of place written like that. What is a complete package? maybe you could make it into a new window link like the terminology pages and explain what a complete package includes for that price?

I still find the payments page a bit off putting, espacially the "Pay Now" thing, just not sure it's the right thing to have on a page like this, couldn't it go into a client login area?

Anyway Rick, critical as usual, but hopefully constructively.

Nicole



Mike54 -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 6:04:16)

quote:

slight change though – the sound is now OFF by default but can be played if user desires

Actually this is not the case, at least in FF 1.0.4, the sound is on at the start. In IE it is off. I don't have any more to add to what the others have said but I'm curious as to why you have a link on the menu back to the intro page?[&:]



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 6:50:45)

Reply to All

Thanks and mostly agree but will not be making too many more changes for now. Bearing in mind it is my own site not a client's I can easily return later and tweak things a little more. I will definitely do something to make my FAQ bar clearer that that is what it is - I can see how easily this could confuse someone at the start.

Re engines...
I have indeed used local keyworoding throughout (Medway, Kent, UK) but maybe this can be sharpened further. Also H1 + H2 key tags habve been used - on the first design I had more keywords at the top but having moved the script nav bar to the top for appearance and accesibility sake I now reralise that it doesn't help ranking - it's all about compromises really isn't it? I know the homepage will have no chance in the engines but the rest have all been targetted in their specific areas - or are you saying that my non-engine friendly homepage will somehow affect other page rankings?

Flash back...!
Why the link back to the flash intro? Simply because the visitors I will hopefully get through engines will not be coming in via the home page and I would like them to be able to see the flash content and at the same time, those who do come through the homepage by other means i want to see the intro first - such is my reasoning

Re Doctype...
My short version validates at W3C and I've never seen a problem caused by quirks mode in any browser - previous validating sites have looked the same with or without Doctype, HOWEVER... I will use the fullest version in future when I start on 4.01 strict or XHTML - I wouldn't want to be responsible for causing deep stress to other designers!!!![:D][;)] - and I'm sure you're right anyhow.

No one has mentioned the banner graphic so I assume it doesn't look too bad (?)

I'm a bit concerend about what Nicole has mentioned about "white bars disappearing"? The outer edges of the pages shoud have a sharp blue vertical line and then a pale blue bgndright down the page. It all looks okay in all my browsers so I am not sure what you mean there.

re money matters...
I just like to be clear with folk at a base level but I negotiate the fine detail once we talk - if the prices put people off then I don't mind, I'd rather state them straight - and the small peripheral services I am offering need a clear price tag in my opinion - and... The prices are very competitive![:)]

Brilliant feedback - thanks everyone, best wishes in business endeavours to all



womble -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 6:54:06)

Can I just add, apart from it being a bit strange having the terminology links at the top of the page, as previously mentioned by others, the text on the bottom of the little pop-up windows it opens is virtually unreadable, especially from an accessibility point of view- white on pale blue is not a good idea - not enough contrast.



Tailslide -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 7:28:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RickP
I will use the fullest version in future when I start on 4.01 strict or XHTML - I wouldn't want to be responsible for causing deep stress to other designers!!!![:D][;)]


[img]http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-040.gif[/img] I have no idea who you're talking about...


quote:


I'm a bit concerend about what Nicole has mentioned about "white bars disappearing"? The outer edges of the pages shoud have a sharp blue vertical line and then a pale blue bgndright down the page. It all looks okay in all my browsers so I am not sure what you mean there.


See attached image.

[image]local://upfiles/15313/0541EFFBD9354E4E9220317845549E94.jpg[/image]



Donkey -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 8:17:36)

quote:

One thing that’s puzzling me…
The blue link bar across the top shouldn’t have a gap above it but it does in all browsers I’ve tested in. Margins and padding are all set to 0 so I am not sure why this is happening – any ideas?
Personally I like the top margin as it is, but if you want the dark blue bar tight aginst the top of the screen set the body top margin to -2px (margin:-2px 0 0 0;).

One other small point, I don't like this line:
"Working from a small home-office in Medway, Kent,"
You are underselling yourself. The beauty of the web is that "size really doesn't matter" ability matters and if your site looks as or more impressive than the one from the big london agency don't spoil the illusion by telling them you are working out of your spare bedroom.

If I was in a small to medium sized business with a reasonable budget to spend on web design I would go somewhere else because I would be looking for continunity of service i.e. I'd be comforted by the illusion that you were a much bigger organisation with someone else available if you went sick for instance. You need to encourage customers not drive them away. I'm not saying you should lie, but there are many ways of presenting the truth and you should use the one most favourable to you.

So my advice is don't mention the size of your company and if a potential large customer ever asks you how big you are say you have an integrated network of freelance associates who work with you including experts in all disciplines required for web design. With modern high speed broad band there is no need for physical contact so you are dealing with talented people all over the world on a daily basis. (It's all true if you use Outfront, there are some very clever people here).

Think big because if you think small you will stay small.



caz -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 8:31:09)

Donkey has given some excellent advice there, it's all about "spin" [:D]

Your banner looks fine, but you do have a problem of display at larger resolutions - but CSS (yes, that) can sort this out...
In ../otwn.css you need to add a width to the table - 100% will make it stretch down, so that you don't get the "missing white bars" effect at larger resolutions.

table

{ font-family: Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 1em; line-height:130%; width: 100%; }

HTH
Carol



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 15:53:50)

Thanks for pointing out more clearly the page "white (really light blue) margin problem." The css table width isn't the fix but thank you anyway. I now see what I have done wrong - the page bgnd is the darker blue colour and the light edge is done by filling a table CELL both sides of the main table - - - table ends - so does my nice pale blue edge effect! I'll have to work on it but I don't think the answer is going to be a short one[:(]

Re the 'small home-office' approach (did make me smile[:D])... I have deliberately made the point of mentioning such so as not to give the impression of being big - it's partly my philosophical approach to being very honest but also at this stage my way of saying 'big guys' don't apply! I know this must sound like really poor business acumen to most of you but for the present I am just moving cautiously 'within my measure'. I'll think about offering my services to Amazon and Ebay in a year or two [:D]

Still working on this site some more - the FAQ bar is going and as one person suggested this will go onto one page instead - keeps all jscript in that one page and leaves the top of the pages free for an h1 keyword statement. See, I listen! [;)] The purpose of the little help pages (which I had on my previous site) is that they act as extra doors into the site - stats show that they have been working to some extent. Quite agree about the color clash with the white link text on them. Will be working on these little boxes again anyhow as it is some while since I wrote the cotent in there and it may need editing.

Thanks for further help



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 15:58:39)

P.S. Caz

When I tried the table width in the CSS it had the effect of squashing inner tables - there are many in there! - maybe I need to address something inline with them/one of them?????



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 16:25:17)

Now looking for the easy fix for this table problem...
is there any VALID equivalent to using table "height" attribute?

EDIT...
I'm on a forum with myself here (better not let the wife know about this[8|]) - I'm just answering my own question though... it seems that 'height' is okay in a table as a 'style':
style="height: 100%"
I think that's done the problem fixed on that one.

Thanks... er... Rick!



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 18:14:45)

Womble

Thanks for mentioning the nav wizard thingy. It is exceptionally good! Using this as a start point I have redone the nav bar completely in CSS - lots of advantages of course I know. Excepting the most minute detail of the shadowing style I had behind these nav buttons I have managed to recreate it almost exact. Take a look!

Big thumbs up for that one!



Donkey -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/27/2005 19:24:16)

quote:

I know this must sound like really poor business acumen to most of you but for the present I am just moving cautiously 'within my measure'.
A risky strategy. In my experience the small business customer is not reassured by someone saying "come and buy from me because I'm small like you."

You won't have to worry about the big guys applying, they almost never do, you have to chase after them.

But if that's the way you want to go good luck with it, I sincerely hope you do well.



womble -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/28/2005 4:45:29)

quote:

Excepting the most minute detail of the shadowing style I had behind these nav buttons I have managed to recreate it almost exact. Take a look!


Excellent! I like! [:)]

*going slightly OT here* With encouragement from c1sissy, caz, Tailsldie and co, I'm now a CSS convert (so much so that when I couldn't get to sleep last night I got up and started planning the css layout for my next project...even though I'm no-where near finishing the last one yet!)

Another couple of great resources for CSS nav are Listamatic and Listamatic2, "copy and paste" hmtl/css code resources...keeps me happy for hours [;)]



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (6/28/2005 9:56:48)

Thanks Donkey
Thanks Womble
[;)]



clarab -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (7/26/2005 1:37:59)

I'll read closer tomorrow. And learn more.
As a body exploring this forum to learn more, I found myself smiling. I'm in the boonies with slow dial-up and downloading is usually very very slow. The intro came quick and I wasn't frustrated with it "taking up my time"? allowing me to go on to content. Even the loop didn't bother me.
This just gave me a smile.
Somebody has figured a way to deliver with us backwoods people. How'd he do it?
Exactly why I'm here.



dpf -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (7/26/2005 11:55:03)

quote:

Exactly why I'm here.
you wont find a better- or more fun - place to learn. my best friend in up in the adirondak mountains in New York and has the same problem..slow dialup.



RickP -> RE: Rick's Site - Re-evaluation please (7/26/2005 14:29:11)

Thanks Clarab for re-opening my old thread and for the positive comments on my site - which you are seeing after numerous adjustments! - but so glad to know it all loads up well when you crank up the old 56k in the outbacks [;)]




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