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jaybee
Posts: 14436 Joined: 10/7/2003 From: Berkshire, UK Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 7:41:20
OK, the particular case I mentioned before, no further info as it's gone to appeal but try this..... quote:
Bruce Maguire lodged a complaint with the Human Rights & Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) under a law called the Disability Discrimination Act. (News article.) His complaint concerned the Web site of the Sydney Organizing Committee for the Olympic Games (SOCOG), which Maguire alleged was inaccessible to him as a blind person. According to the complaint, Maguire, unlike most blind people online, does not use a screen reader to read aloud the elements of a Web page. Instead, he uses a refreshable Braille display. But neither technology can understand and turn into voice an image that lacks a text equivalent. Nearly all Web pages online have some kind of graphics, including high-profile sites like those associated with major sporting events. Maguire contended that significant parts of the SOCOG Web site, Olympics.com, were inaccessible to him. On 24 August 2000, the HREOC released its decision and supported Maguire’s complaint, ordering certain access provisions to be in place on the Olympics.com site by 15 September 2000. SOCOG ignored the ruling and was subsequently fined A$20,000. To respond to the objection that this case, having taken place “far away” in Australia, is unrelated to Web design in other nations, we would suggest examining the similarities among the Disability Discrimination Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the Canadian Human Rights Act, not to mention provincial, state, and territorial human-rights codes. The legal principles of unequal treatment (“discrimination”; “unfavourable” treatment) and unjustifiable hardship (“undue” hardship or “burden”) are effectively identical in Australia, the U.S., and Canada, if not elsewhere, and the case of Maguire vs. SOCOG will inevitably come into play as precedents for legal cases worldwide. quote:
The SOCOG decision explains what is and is not attainable and blows common excuses for inaccessible Web sites out of the water. For content creators, the lesson of this case is simple: Accessibility is easy, it is not optional, and if you keep ignoring it you may someday find yourself in court. If an organization as powerful as a national Olympic organizing committee – with effectively unlimited resources and, on the part of its paterfamilias, the International Olympic Committee, a century-long history of exclusion and inaccessibility – can lose a case like this, other cases resting on similar legal principles are likely to prevail.
< Message edited by jaybee -- 7/28/2005 10:23:54 >
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If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is. GAWDS Now where did I put that Doctype?
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jaybee
Posts: 14436 Joined: 10/7/2003 From: Berkshire, UK Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 7:47:26
quote:
The National Federation of the Blind filed a lawsuit against America Online, charging that it has not moved with sufficient vigor to make its services fully available to sightless users ("Lawsuit: AOL Ignores Blind", Reuters/Wired.com, Nov. 5, link now dead). AOL is a big business, of course, but there's no reason to think that accessibility obligations under the ADA do not extend all the way down to many "mom-and-pop" ISPs, applications providers, online magazines and journals, e-stores, and so forth. quote:
The National Federation of the Blind has sued AOL claiming that the AOL software violates the Americans With Disabilities Act because it is incompatible with many voice recognition software programs. These programs allow people to control their computers with their voices rather than a keyboard. If web pages are correctly formatted, the programs can also read aloud the text on them.
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If it ain't broke..... fix it until it is. GAWDS Now where did I put that Doctype?
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Nicole
Posts: 2992 Joined: 9/15/2004 From: Sydney, Australia Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 7:49:52
Another good analogy Jaybee.... The other point I'm trying to make is that as soon as a web designer knows that accessibility issues exist and how they may impact upon sites that they've designed or will design in the future, that's the time to start researching accessibility issues and how to correct them or put alternatives in place, and to implement those features into sites they create from then on. Any number of these non-believers or one of their clients could face legal action in say 2008, they could then say that they are aware as of that date that accessibility is an issue and they'll take steps to correct or provide alternatives, but....... .....it will only take one internet savvy lawyer to jump online and search web design forums and see that these people knew about accessibility issues in July 2005 and they brushed them aside or ignored them then. They only have to look at the Way back Machine to see what sites these designers had created and what accessibility issues existed then and compare them to the site as it stands in 2008 and see that these people have not undertaken any measures to correct or provide alternatives in the time since they first became aware of accessibility issues in web design. Bingo, they're arguement of only having discovered accessibility issues in 2008 has taken a huge blow and they're sued. Isn't it called due diligence? Nicole
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". . . and God created man in his image." errr, shouldn't that be "and man created God in his image'?
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davids
Posts: 211 Joined: 1/26/2003 From: Belgium (American) Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 7:58:53
I think talking about dangerous pathways, public transport, and voting machines is a distortion of the issues. The IOC is also a publicly funded body. For most of us, this is not a subject about preventing people from exercising their civil rights. In the world where my customers live, I can explain to them the issues and potential liability. I can offer to improve accessibility for 10% more. The risk and choice is theirs, not mine. I'm sure I won't have any takers. This thread has gone way out into ideals while customers pay for results.
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Nicole
Posts: 2992 Joined: 9/15/2004 From: Sydney, Australia Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 8:16:48
quote:
I think talking about dangerous pathways, public transport, and voting machines is a distortion of the issues. I don't! Why do Councils fix pathways? 1. So that they're safe and available for everyone who can use them to use them. 2. So that they minimise the risk of being sued. Why provide Public Transport? 1. It's an alternative for people who don't or can't drive and for those who don't or can't walk. 2. It's better for the environment (but that IS getting off the topic) Why is it necessary to provide equal opportunity to people in wheelchairs to vote? 1. Because in the long run, it's not an efficient use of resources to have two police officers stand watch while polling booth attendents bring out a polling booth for him to vote. (Likewise it's not efficient to knowingly create an inaccessible website when you or somebody else will in the future have to redo the site at a cost to your client) 2. Because it makes that guy feel "different" to everyone else. 3. Because he has a right to be able to do this basic thing. Which one of those doesn't apply to web design?
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". . . and God created man in his image." errr, shouldn't that be "and man created God in his image'?
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davidrandall
Posts: 82 Joined: 7/28/2005 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 10:48:12
quote:
Accessible sites don't have to be boring looking Well said. Websites are only boring if the designer/developer lacks the imagination, creativity and technical knowledge to make them better. Accessible websites are not as difficult to put together as people may think, all it needs is openmindedness and a willingness to learn new techniques. Dave
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pageoneresults
Posts: 1001 From: Orange, CA USA Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 11:21:28
The concept of Access Keys was a great idea. The problem is, there was never really any combined support for their use. Because there are so many programs, browsers, etc that utilize certain keyboard commands, there was just too much work involved to determine which keys you could use without interferring with something else. I personally dove into this subject a couple of years ago and ended up with this... Accessible Site Design The goal with the above was to create an alternative to our main site that was accessible and could be browsed using keyboard only, absolutely no mouse work is required to move around that portion of the site.
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davidrandall
Posts: 82 Joined: 7/28/2005 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 11:38:52
Hi all and thanks for the welcome! With regards to a text alternative, I personally hate the idea. It can be seen as discriminatory in its own right by offering less of a service than the main site. For example, Manchester United's main website has over 100 links in its primary navigation menu. The "accessible alternative" at www.manutd.com/access has 8 links. Is that an equal service? The biggest problem that access keys faced was the lack of any form of standard - a user would have to learn a different combination of keyboard shortcuts for each site that had them. Dave
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womble
Posts: 6272 Joined: 3/14/2005 From: Living on the edge Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 11:41:57
quote:
This is simply unachievable. Not true for all the reason's stated above. All it needs is some consideration and careful planning. Stick to using js for none-essential uses that won't break your site if js is switched off, use alternatives such as php etc. if possible (there's plenty of free scripts out there if you don't know php), and follow Tailslide's example and you'll keep all your users happy. As previously said, it's not brain surgery. quote:
This is the key phrase that is often misunderstood in accessibility discussions, quote:
render as readable not the same necessarily, but informative; maybe without the pretty fluff but perfectly usable for the user's purpose. Sometimes designers forget that they are designing for users, not themselves. Well said Caz! Equality and equal opportunities isn't about providing access in the same way, it's about making sure information and services accessible to everyone. quote:
All this disability access stuff is a bit like health and safety "legislation"; technofanatics, zealots, bullies, little Hitlers, bureaucrats, the lazy etc all use it to support whatever it is they do or mainly, don't, want to (have to) do. Most disability/health & safety strictures are, like pub statistics, made up on the spot to suit an argument. I don't very often find it necessary to announce my problems to the world, but as a disabled person with various problems, I have to strongly disagree with that. I shall have to remember that little quote next time I can't get into a shop or something, or find a totally inaccessible website. Silly me, why should I want to do anything that every able-bodied person takes for granted? After all I'm only a statistic.
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davidrandall
Posts: 82 Joined: 7/28/2005 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 11:42:52
my site is hideously out of date btw. Even though that version is only 6 months old, I've learnt a hell of a lot more since uploading it! Accessibility, usability, semantics - it's all a continously evolving area.
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briesmith
Posts: 67 Joined: 2/6/2003 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 11:45:38
quote:
designer/developer lacks the imagination, creativity and technical knowledge daverandall quote:
there's a professional at work jaybee But what about the grammar and spelling? Life is always a compromise; concentrate on one thing - putting, say - and something else - playing to the green - goes to cock. I don't post to carp, we're all human but getting everything right is generally beyond us and smugness must be avoided at all times.
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davidrandall
Posts: 82 Joined: 7/28/2005 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 11:52:59
quote:
Most disability/health & safety strictures are, like pub statistics, made up on the spot to suit an argument. How's this for a statistic - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4105385.stm That's a hell of a large market most are missing out on. I'm just trying to make my website open to as many people as possible. I'm not going to please 100% of people 100% of the time but I'm trying.
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briesmith
Posts: 67 Joined: 2/6/2003 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:11:02
If you believe that 15% to 20% of the population is disabled to the extent that their ability to use the internet is affected to the degree that special provision needs to be made for them then you are living in a different country. It's an unexplained paradox of modern life that while we live longer, stay active longer, deny our real age by 10 years or more we are, apparently, disabled to a degree never seen before. And if you think a sensible business will ignore or antagonise the majority to go after an £80bn market in an economy bigger than £1000bn then, again, I can't agree with you or share your experience. As an aside it's interesting to note that 15%-20% of the population (allegedly) apparently controls only 8% of the economy? The statistics in the BBC article clearly come into the pub category I mentioned earlier.
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briesmith
Posts: 67 Joined: 2/6/2003 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:19:42
quote:
on what's wrong Looking through your posts that does seem to be your forte...
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davidrandall
Posts: 82 Joined: 7/28/2005 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:21:15
quote:
And if you think a sensible business will ignore or antagonise the majority to go after an £80bn market in an economy bigger than £1000bn then, again, I can't agree with you or share your experience. This isn't what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that there is an EXTRA £80billion market which is being insufficiently supported.
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briesmith
Posts: 67 Joined: 2/6/2003 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:21:37
[quote:
That's what spell checkers are for You think? Have another look
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davidrandall
Posts: 82 Joined: 7/28/2005 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:23:35
quote:
quote: That's what spell checkers are for You think? Have another look At what?
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briesmith
Posts: 67 Joined: 2/6/2003 Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:24:17
David Shaky economics there I'm afraid. The £80bn is being spent; economies are zero sum. You won't find tons of pound notes under the matresses of the disabled. They spend their dough in pretty much the same proportions as the rest of us. It just that someone who makes a living off the backs of the disabled and disability wants to boost their case.
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womble
Posts: 6272 Joined: 3/14/2005 From: Living on the edge Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:27:58
quote:
As an aside it's interesting to note that 15%-20% of the population (allegedly) apparently controls only 8% of the economy? You'll probably find that's because disabled people are discriminated against in employment in a very real way and many have no option but to live on benefits. As for the allegedly, there's no allegedly about it.
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~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~ ~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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womble
Posts: 6272 Joined: 3/14/2005 From: Living on the edge Status: offline
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/28/2005 12:32:05
quote:
You won't find tons of pound notes under the matresses of the disabled. They spend their dough in pretty much the same proportions as the rest of us. Except of course that they often have additional costs in terms of transport, simply living day to day, heating, medical costs... quote:
Economic and social exclusion * A recent survey revealed that one in six (15%) young disabled people said they had been turned down for a paid job, and told it was for a reason related to their disability or health problem * 41% of disabled people of working age have no educational qualifications in comparison to 18% of non disabled * Incomes of households with at least one disabled person are 20-30% lower than the incomes of all households Disability and poverty * “More than 1.3 billion people worldwide struggle to exist on less than $1 a day, and the disabled in their countries live at the bottom of the pile” James Wolfensohn * “Unless disabled people are brought into the development mainstream, it will be impossible to cut poverty in half by 2015 or to give every girl and boy the chance to achieve a primary education by the same date - goals agreed to by more than 180 world leaders at the UN Millennium Summit in September 2000” James Wolfensohn Great link BTW Jaybee!
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~~ "A cruel god ain't no god at all" ~~ ~~ Erase hate. Practice love. ~~
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