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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5470
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From: Arizona
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/29/2005 14:22:15
quote:
Firstly, I honestly believe that all you need to do is code sensibly and your site will be accessible to most - doesn't take any fancy expensive extra stuff. Use valid code and label stuff
- If you take the time to do that, not only will it help for accessibility, but it will also benefit SEO.
quote:
That fact still doesn't detract from the point that accessibility in general is a GOOD THING and not massively hard to achieve given a little thought and decent coding.
- It's funny that most people don't know the requirements. Most seem to be pretty easy to meet, it is exceeding them that can be hard.
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Bobby D I am not going to argue with you this time. You made it perfectly clear what your feelings were the last time we discussed this ie. there's no business case for it and therefore you don't want to spend the time/money.
- Well, once I see some valid points, maybe someone will be able to change my mind 
quote:
I'm surprised however that you had to get someone else to quote for revamping your site for XHTML. I would have thought that you'd know HTML well enough to understand that XHTML is not much different and you ought to be a
- XHTML strict is VERY different. Don't act like you could have completed the xhtml/css coding for my design, we both know that is not true. Coding for that took well over a week's worth of time.
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Now, the harder requirement I've read here is to use strict XHTML and CSS.
- Strict is very hard to complete. There are huge differences between normal xhtml/css layouts, and layouts that actually look decent.
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I wonder if the whole area could be made simpler if the w3c sponsored a tag <textreader> and developers simply put all the sites text in that area and the screen readers simply looked there instead of having to scramble through code variations. Is that an oversimplification?
- Duplicate content. I think it would cost someone a lot more money having that, than hiring someone to make their site up to standards.
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Of the remainder in the disabled group how many use the internet; how do they use the internet (hardware and software), broken down by disability type and areas of interest (ie the sites/pages they visit)?
My bet is that none of you have a clue and nor do any of the vast numbers of people on the disability bandwagon. Which at the end of the day is really bad news for the disabled.
- Let's hope with all this knowledge about accessibility on here, someone will have this pretty significant detail.
quote:
If, as some of my clients do, they request things as part of the site that I cannot make valid this way then I tell them their options.
- What do you normally charge for accessibility? From step 1 to a final product.
< Message edited by BobbyDouglas -- 7/29/2005 15:17:13 >
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dpf
Posts: 7126
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From: India-napolis
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/29/2005 21:47:57
do blind people really surf the net? check this out
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6448213/did/8731861/
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BobbyDouglas
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From: Arizona
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 1:39:24
Very interesting article Dan. I have trouble playing some games as it is, couldn't imagine someone trying to do it blind! Amazing he is going to study graphic design at college, something most people require sight to do.
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womble
Posts: 5702
Joined: 3/14/2005
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 14:55:40
quote:
So if I continue shopping there I, like most other visitors, will have to walk halfway across the car park (twice) probably in the rain because the people who own the supermarket want to be politically correct.
Be grateful you can walk that far. The reason they have so many spaces probably is to account for the inconsiderate non-disabled drivers who think they can park wherever they feel like it, meaning someone who really needs that space cannot.
I swore that I wasn’t going to let myself get dragged into this argument again and get annoyed by some of the ignorant stereotypical views expressed earlier in this thread, but felt I had to respond.
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Disability is a spectrum not an absolute. At one end there will be those in PVS, plegics with absolutely no motor function whatsoever, poor devils in the terminal stages of illness prostrated by depression, resignation, pain control whatever and at the other end there will be those with only one good eye, or ear, or worn out ankles, knees, hips, elbows or a friendly GP or at least a good story to tell him, that most of us wouldn't class as disabled at all.
In between are the genuinely disabled who are using the internet or would like to. They're the people we need to know about.
And if they're insisting on using Apples or some bloody browser no one's ever heard of or refuse to upgrade their software or are adopting any other bloody minded posture then sod 'em.
It’s ignorant views such as those expressed above that are the most damaging, and offensive to disabled people. The person who has severe arthritis in their knees and is in constant pain isn’t disabled? The person who has severe angina and can’t walk more than 100ft without severe pain isn’t disabled? Are they any less disabled because they don’t use a walking stick or a wheelchair? How about the partially sighted man who has no depth perception and limited peripheral vision and can’t cross a road alone? The deaf person whose sense of balance has also been affected by their hearing loss and can’t go out unassisted? Aren’t they disabled because they don’t fit the pre-conceived stereotypical view of what a disabled person should look like and how they should act?
I spent today at a fundraising event attended by deaf and deafblind people who were incensed when I told them about some of the views expressed here recently. The reason disabled people get so annoyed about lack of access and lack of consideration? Because they face it every day, whether intentionally or not, and battling against a world full of inconsiderate people and a world designed by able-bodied people is damned hard work, day in day out.
It’s taken for granted that discrimination against disabled people is okay because it’s too expensive to do, there aren’t that many of ‘them’ so it’s not worth it, it doesn’t affect me so why should I worry about it? All we want is some consideration – the things most people take for granted. (The bold bit by the way is the message they told me to pass on).
And on the statistics on disability/lack of reliable statistics/precise number of, etc., yesterday when I was looking for quotes to put on my site, I found this, which I think sums up the arguing about the statistics.
quote:
"Statistics are people with the tears wiped from their eyes."
These aren’t numbers we’re talking about, they’re people with feelings, and as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says, "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."
No-one’s asking for perfection, just a little consideration, and as far as xhtml/css are concerned, as jaybee’s examples show, xhtml strict/css and good design aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m a realist and accept that when you’re in business there are business considerations, but basic accessibility, alt tags, relative font sizes etc. aren’t difficult to implement.
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jaybee
Posts: 14191
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From: Berkshire, UK
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 15:59:04
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Either of you looking for more work?
No thanks, I've already got more than I can handle. 
quote:
In between are the genuinely disabled who are using the internet or would like to. They're the people we need to know about.
And if they're insisting on using Apples or some bloody browser no one's ever heard of or refuse to upgrade their software or are adopting any other bloody minded posture then sod 'em.
Briesmith
I missed this post earlier and I'm really glad I did.
You blow your own trumpet saying you have written this specialist piece of software for one individual but you can't be bothered to make your site available for many individuals with the same problem. Then, to add insult to injury, when those individuals have the absolute nerve to use a browser, common across the disabled community, but you haven't heard of it, you say sod em!!!
Rarely have I come across such a self centered, pig ignorant, stuffed shirt. You disgust me.
[edit]
You may not be aware that every library in the UK either has, or is in the process of setting up PCs for free use. All of the libraries in Berkshire have installed the Supernova browser so that blind users can access the internet. I was at the planning and policies meeting where it was discussed and I was told that browser was to be implemented as a countrywide standard.
< Message edited by jaybee -- 7/30/2005 18:47:53 >
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Now where did I put that Doctype?
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caz
Posts: 3578
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Somewhere south of Chester, UK
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 16:59:37
quote:
Care to explain the facts a bit more then? I know for a fact that the US here isn't 48% disabled to the point they have issues with viewing a web site.
If you read the thread expanding on this 48% figure you would have found this,
quote:
They are not saying that 48% of the UK is blind. They are not saying that 48% of the UK is severely disabled.
What they are saying is that in addition to the number of blind and registered disabled in the UK there is a top heavy population of over 50s. Of that population a large percentage have deteriorating sight and may have problems viewing web sites. My emphasis.
I believe that the US demographic also shows the same balance of baby-boomers to the total population.
But as Womble said, we are talking about people here, not numbers.
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davids
Posts: 211
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Belgium (American)
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 17:12:56
Womble, I really appreciate you bringing the viewpoint of an end user into this. It is very valuable.
quote:
Rarely have I come across such a self centered, pig ignorant, stuffed shirt. You disgust me.
This thread has turned ugly. I'll drop my subscription. Thanks to everyone for your insights.
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International Relocation Technology
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davids
Posts: 211
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 18:11:14
Jaybee,
Thank you for your private posting, which says the same as above. I have not dropped my subscription to this forum, just to this thread because I can imagine the future course of postings.
I hope to read more from all of you another time.
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International Relocation Technology
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caz
Posts: 3578
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From: Somewhere south of Chester, UK
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 20:07:42
This is ridiculous, that a perfectly sensible hint (or tip) from Nicole about the use of access keys, should generate such argument. This thread was directed at those of us who use accessible design strategies, not intended as a discussion about the use of such design.
Maybe the time has come to end this thread and consider a separate forum for Accessibility, where those who would like sensible discussion and advice can get it; those who think it is a waste of time don't have to go there.
Read my sig.
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Cheshire cat. www.doracat.co.uk
I remember when it took less than 4hrs to fly across the Atlantic.
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dpf
Posts: 7126
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From: India-napolis
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 20:09:45
Oh carol, carol..an argument shows so much about everyones character - lets not be upset about it. as always,even in losing her temper, jaybee shows her class. so what the hell.
Dan (aka smut brigader)
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Nicole
Posts: 2845
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 20:35:10
Caz & Dan,
You're both right! I knew from another recent thread that went way off the rails that I as original poster had the ability to wipe the thread or to alter it, but i just wasn't sure how to do that.
I contacted Jaybee last night to discuss the options as I wanted to see if the original post and following few replies could be separated and put into a new thread, or if another post could be written and placed before my first one to explain what's coming. It seems neither could be done easily, so we decided to rename the thread instead.
Caz, people may see this as my way to "force" discussion on a new Accessibility forum at this site following another recent post of mine suggesting that. That's not the case at all, if anyone goes back to the start and reads through, I only entered the accessibility debate in this thread well after it had erupted. I also changed my mind in another PM to Jaybee about an Accessibility forum as i really felt that what we've seen here could occur time after time in that forum. But now that you mention it the way you have, i think that if the intro to the forum stated that if it was for those who accept accessibility as an important issue and strive to achieve higher levels of accessibility for their work, then it may just stop this type of arguing. So, I've changed my mind again.
Dan, you're also right in that it really shows people's characters when this type of debate arises. I dislike confrontation completely, I also don't like people's feelings being hurt regardless of whether they agree with me or my values, but, at a cost, this debate has highlighted some very common stereotypes and misconceptions about accessibility and its worthiness or not in web design. The fact that i'm very firmly in one camp on this issue possibly clouds my view of the worthiness of this debate staying here for all to see in the future at this site. If somebody years down the track stumbles upon this thread with a preconceived idea that accessibility isn't important, or is just debating whether it is or not, I'm satisfied that the dozen or so posts before this one will confirm in their minds that it's an issue to be taken seriously not only because it's the law in many countries now, but also most importantly that it's the right thing to do.
Nicole
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BobbyDouglas
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/30/2005 21:57:34
quote:
But as Womble said, we are talking about people here, not numbers.
- The 48% is a number. That is atleast what I am wondering about. Maybe some explanation about these numbers would be great!
quote:
an accessible web design topic is raised, it degenerates into the need to justify the whole concept of accessibility.
- It might continue to do that, until some more questions have been answered. Remember that very few people know about accessibility, be ready to answer questions until the majority of people understand it, and know how to deal with it.
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jaybee
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/31/2005 7:09:05
Guys, thank you for your PMs and posts and support in this matter. You are well aware that whilst I try very hard to be fair, I won't accept unfair attacks. In the normal run of things I would have taken that off board and PMd my thoughts but in this particular case, I didn't want it to look as though, by not answering, that any of us were condoning his comments.
The issue keeps arising that we need to justify accessibility. No, I'm sorry we don't. That's like having to justify human rights. As Womble says, just because those with disabilites are in the minority does not mean they don't count.
As able bodied people we are used to being able to adjust our approach to things. If Firefox doen't serve up a web site correctly then we can fire up IE instead. Others don't have that option and rely on those of us who can assist them to do so by making our sites as easy for them to use as possible.
They don't expect us to turn cartwheels to make the site compliant to the highest degree, I happen to be one person who enjoys the challenge of doing so but I accept that there are others who don't have the luxury of the time to spend on it and still others who may be frightened by the whole concept.
But the fact is, whether you agree with it or not, it is, in most countries, the law and you ignore it at your peril. I happen to think that the law has been implemented in a sensible fashion. They have gone for a basic level which ought to be easy to implement, and have only imposed that law on commercial sites so that hobbyists need not worry.
As to percentages. I cannot justify those figures without going round every house in the country and checking them. I have to rely on official figures produced by the UK Gov't. Those are usually collated from the census which is run every 10 years and is mandatory for all households to complete. The figures are not produced, as many other stats are, from a random sampling of 2000 people in Bognor High Street.
I can assure you that I am in no way one of the bleeding hearts who are completely and utterly politically correct, I think a lot of the things being introduced are ridiculous in the extreme and do more harm than good. I do however believe we are morally obligated to assist those less fortunate than ourselves wherever possible.
Giving to charity may not be something you can do if you are strapped for cash, volunteering requires time and effort and does not suit everyone, taking care of someone who is ill doesn't work for those not of the caring variety. I for example don't pretend to have the patience or the stomach for being a nurse (big yay! to all of those who can do it) but what I can do is add an alt tag to a picture in my web sites.
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Now where did I put that Doctype?
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BobbyDouglas
Posts: 5470
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From: Arizona
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/31/2005 13:46:41
quote:
The issue keeps arising that we need to justify accessibility. No, I'm sorry we don't. That's like having to justify human rights. As Womble says, just because those with disabilites are in the minority does not mean they don't count.
- You might have already justified it, but there are a LOT of people that have no clue at all. What's required? Why even do this? Does it even benefit us?
Everyone here approaches these questions in the wrong way. When I first wondered about it, I was overwhelmned with the amount of information. Couldn't believe it actually. Now I know that there are basically three rquirements, valid code, and comply with Section 508/WAI level1. Coding standard doesn't just help your site by making it more accessible, but it helps your site for SEs as well.
Hopefully in the future, people who try to justify it for others, will be able to in a way that doesn't make it look like useless overwhelming task. This new accessibility forum should help that.
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Tailslide
Posts: 6267
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RE: Accesskeys... - 7/31/2005 13:57:53
quote:
ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas
Everyone here approaches these questions in the wrong way. When I first wondered about it, I was overwhelmned with the amount of information. Couldn't believe it actually. Now I know that there are basically three rquirements, valid code, and comply with Section 508/WAI level1. Coding standard doesn't just help your site by making it more accessible, but it helps your site for SEs as well.
Hopefully in the future, people who try to justify it for others, will be able to in a way that doesn't make it look like useless overwhelming task. This new accessibility forum should help that.
Couldn't of said it better myself BobbyD.
"Have you seeeeeen the light?" Back on film quotes again - sorry!
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briesmith
Posts: 67
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RE: Accesskeys... - 8/1/2005 6:08:01
quote:
Rarely have I come across such a self centered, pig ignorant, stuffed shirt. You disgust me.
My whole thread in this thread has been reasonable; you need to review your own postings which answer questions that have not been asked; throw "statistics" and "facts" about with abandon and which when challenged are supported by personal attacks on "number crunchers" and as above; you do nothing but posture sanctimonously with unrelenting self-righteous smugness and clearly believe that, "I know what I'm talking about, you're wrong, and what's more you're a dolt" is all that needs to be said.
You come across as nothing more that an aggressive, big headed, loudmouthed, forum harpy who thinks whether she is or isn't disgusted is, obviously, important.
We have rantings about people with arthritis in their knees, lacking peripheral vision, suffering from giddiness (I know how they feel) and so on. And these ailments affect their use of the internet how? And we web designers can do exactly what about them?
And THIS is my point. Forget all this I'm better than you breast beating and name calling; what are the disabilties visitors to the internet have, how many have them and how many can, in reality, be practicably addressed by what measures?
Without this information we could be spending money and effort in a patronising attempt to address problems that don't actually exist while missing those that do.
All the rest is just hot air, rudely expressed, and gets us practical, unsentimental types nowhere.
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Tailslide
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RE: Accesskeys... - 8/1/2005 6:18:21
quote:
ORIGINAL: briesmith
And we web designers can do exactly what about them? .....
....Without this information we could be spending money and effort in a patronising attempt to address problems that don't actually exist while missing those that do.
I thought we'd covered this already?
Code properly i.e. use VALID code and make sure by getting it validated at the W3C. Meet priority 1 of the WCAG recommendations as a minimum. That's it. Not too difficult - why would that cost you extra money. Do you charge more for coding properly?
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