file names/directory names and Google - question! (Full Version)

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RickP -> file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/24/2005 14:10:14)

Can anyone answer this... ?

Lets say my key-phrase is: "badger food"

In respect of file/directory naming (and depth of directories maybe?), which would have more weight with SERPs:






Reflect -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/24/2005 16:21:39)

www.mysite.com/badger-food/badger-food.htm

The dashes represent delimiters to the SEs so they see it as badger food not badgerfood. A word of caution, I try to use only one hyphen per name. I feel once you over use this tip it can give negative (read spammy) results.

Many will disagree with me on the hyphens but I sit by my statement.

Take care,

Brian



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/25/2005 6:05:39)

Thanks Brian - v. interesting!

I'd like to see other opinions/experiences on this one - anyone?



Reflect -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/25/2005 14:30:21)

Here are around 8K worth of thoughts...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=page+names%2Bhyphens+versus+underscores&spell=1

From Googles site:

"Search for complete phrases by enclosing them in quotation marks or connecting them with hyphens. Words marked in this way will appear together in all results exactly as entered. "

Taken from...

http://www.google.com/apis/reference.html

Take care,

Brian



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/27/2005 4:50:50)

Cheers Brian

Here's a quote from one of those discusssions:

quote:

Google's technologies change all the time. What is impossible today may be possible tomorrow.


I guess ultimately there is no once-for-all best practice in some things where SERPs are concerned. It'd be nice if Google just told us but I suppose that'd make life just too easy![:D]



tinaalice -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/31/2005 21:52:13)

Google tells you quite a lot, follow their rules page to the letter and you will do well. A friend of my tested results using no hypens hypens and underscores. Since se's see a two part work such as badgerfood as badgerfood and one used with an underscore badger_food as badgerfood (ie all one word) but sees badger-food as badger-food ie two keywords AND also a phrase .. using hypens is the best thing to do. Remember though, SEO is about 100 different things, you have to use them all to do well not just bits and peices of the overall picture. Use file and folders names where they WOULD be used. Use keyword tools such as http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/suggestion/ to find out what is being searched for, optimise your pages with h tags (which can be sized with css to suit you) Use the title of the page in the description and keywords metas and in the h1 tag, use parts of those within the h2 tags.. use the phrases within the page .. like css it goes down step by step each thing linking to the other till your page is optimised.. even name your graphics and alt tags and title tags with seo in mind but only where it works for the graphic don't over fill. Above all read the google rules and follow them to a T. Optimise each page because each page is a gateway into your site. To see this for yourself just experiment and look at your own results.

hth Tina



Mojo -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (8/31/2005 23:09:58)

quote:

Google tells you quite a lot, follow their rules page to the letter and you will do well


The well known Florida update destroyed countless sites that followed Googles suggestions. Following their rules/suggestions will not save you from an algo update. Not one bit. It also won't help you rank in competitive areas unless your lucky.

quote:

Above all read the google rules and follow them to a T.


Hmm... Tina - "with seo in mind "

From Google:
quote:

Another useful test is to ask, ... Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"


Keeping SEO in mind is going against what Google recommends.

I haven't seen many sites - without link love from some major sites - that rank well for competitive phrases that are pure white hat. And why should we?



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 7:59:00)

Thanks Tina for those thoughts and the keyword tool link. Also for help with the hyphen phenomenon! All else that you mention I already do. Can you give me the link to Google's recommendations - I think I've read it before but can' t remember where to find it.

Mojo - thanks for the balancing thoughts on this, now...

quote:

I haven't seen many sites - without link love from some major sites - that rank well for competitive phrases that are pure white hat.


Question 1, forgive ignorance: what does "pure white hat" mean?[8|]

Q2 - more importantly ($64 thousand for correct answer!) - how big a part does linking from other sites play and how can the small guys (with few friends[:(] ) compete on the engine rankings against those who have lots of incoming links?



tinaalice -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 12:25:33)

Mojo If what you are doing works 100% for you, don't even think of changing anything. <smile>

White hat and black hat means that .. white hats won't do anything seowise bad .. they won't frame, they won't use hidden text (ie white text on a white background) they will always use ethical seo and won't use any of the other no no's.. see http://1url.org/go/1blackhat for a quick insight.. just google for black hat seo or white hat seo to learn more.

Personal contacts with webmasters of sites that compliment yours, you have a range of sites that you can link to because your services offer pc help webdesign and hosting. Network with others that offer slightly different services but still are within the area you work in., each of you helps the other then. Simply by providing comprehensive help files for FrontPage will get you some nice linkbacks.

Use your sig links in any posts to lists, use anchor text links in forums for your set up sig lines. Refer people to tutorials on your site in forums and lists and newsgroups when your helping people. Put your links into each yahoo group your on that targets the services you offer... targetted links are the key not massive incoming links that are not targetted. Write articles and have a blurb box that allows others to use them providing the blurb box is used .. make sure its all anchor text. ... If you use the same articles on your site change them (update them) somewhat. Provide your own community by providing a forum, ezine or list. Or all three. By having your articles published in targetted sites that get a lot of vistsors this helps people click on your link ... for instance (grin) Dynamic Web Templates - How to prepare your site but when people want help with dwt I refer them to my free dwt ebook on my site,

Helping people had brought me far more linkbacks than if I went out and actively asked for links .. I ask for linkbacks (in text format) when someone want's to 'pay' me for helping them on a list, the only active linkback making I do is to use my sig lines, and If I come across a new frontpage site I ask for linkback but only once I've made a relationship with the webmaster, and only if their site is going to help my readers. Other things I do is to use my articles I point to them if they are needed in the context of a post .. for more information.

Here is an article I wrote <grin> about how to promote your site (now where possible in html situations use an anchor text link.

I took a quick look at your site.. your number one problem right now is using a spash page .. .those are for people who like eye candy not who run a business. Content content content is the byword for sites ... with at least 1000 words on the page if possible. Your homepage is the most visited page in any site, how can a search engine follow text links through your homepage if it does not have any? What about those who use readers and won't be able to follow the graphic/flash link? Don't put mountain in your front door.

The thing with seo is .. everyone has an opinion as to what works and as to what does not. If your not the type of person that finds it endlessly facinating enough to do your own experiments (actual experiments not reading what someone else has written) pick a guru that does that and follow their guidelines .. and ignore everything else..there is danger in swapping between different schools of thought, be consistant in your approach. For the record I find certain aspects of seo mind numbing beyond belief... and would rather do what I like to do.. which is helping people and writing help tutorials, it's my hobby. However I also like to sell my art work so I'm making a new site using seo guidelines because I've seen what seo used consistantly can do for businesses. You have a great site, there are three things I could see from four seconds on your site.

1.entrance page
2. The blues of the header graphic don't blend to the background blue very well.
3. Content but not enough on each page.

The header was a nit pick it just seemed to let down the overall presentation to my mind though... nothing to with seo. The other two are seo hotspots that changes can make a difference to.


hth Tina



dpf -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 12:39:48)

quote:

they will always use ethical seo
I dont disagree with anything you say except this statement (above). web sites exist... search engines exist to try to list them in some order "guessing" at the relevance of sites to the (unspoken and therefore implied) "desired result" of the searcher. Any SE algorithm is merely a guess. I fail to see where "ethics" comes to play at all. Brings to mind the principle in physics that the mere observation and measurement of things thereby changes them.

A Search engine says " we assume these things occur naturaly and based upon tha, we developed our algorithm - dont you dare tamper with that reality" BS Everyone is trying to get higher results. Why is the line between ethical and non ethical behaviour based upon following Google's "rules"? nonsense - even the old and easily exposed white on white text. why is that unethical? does it hurt the consumer? no

Google built their empire upon their original assumption: the number of sites linking TO a site directly correlates to the value of that site. That, in fact, is a niave assumption - I could post the most informative site on a topic tommorrow and no one links to it - does that fact mean it is valuless? no

Once Googles method of ranking becomes known, common sense and good business practice would make people want to fit in - it is only "unethical" to Google because they want to control behaviour.

sorry for the rant

when i started my business 6 years ago, I selected a name that began with W. Afew years ago, I decided to advertize in the Yellow Pages. I "discoverd" that their algorithm for list was based upon the alphabet which placed my name last in my categories. I decided to "game the system" by opening a second company with a name that began with A. Is that unethical? Im gaming the system.



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 13:59:14)

Right...

"white hat" - "black hat"... is this something to do with American gun-slingers!? The baddies always where a white hat and the goodies a black one - is that it? If so, my Englishness may of got in the way of understanding that one[;)]

Thanks Tina for taking the trouble of looking through my biz website - I welcome your observations. Now a question re the flash intro on the home page... It's there because I know prospective clients want flash but do you think that my SEO would be in any way improved if I moved the flash page elsewhere, swapping it with my main blurp page? If so, why?

Anybody... does it make any difference (to serps) if my 'best' optimised page is my home page or just any other doorway into my site?

And re your artwork Tina... it may (?) be useful to have a link swap with this site I run: www.medwayart.co.uk

Re the study of SEO - it's my least favourite aspect of web design, I wish I could ignore it mainly but its a necessary evil[:@]



Mojo -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 15:42:10)

quote:

they will always use ethical seo


Like Dan, my only concern is this statement. Just what is Ethical SEO?

RickP - If you get enough quality backlinks you can rank your splash for just about anything. Quality links trump content.

quote:

Content content content


Links, links, links. You can build an excellent site filled with quality content, but if you're not getting links - you won't rank. A case can be made that quality content will - over time - earn natural backlinks across the web and I agree with that. But what happens when you want to rank quickly? You need those backlinks.

Bloggers have shown over and over how powerful links can be by ranking blank pages or political pages without even the search terms on the page. This is done by the backlinks and the anchor text and/or the text surrounding the backlink.

In short, you can rank a splash page for competitive terms and easily outrank content pages, but if someone has both content and backlinks - they win.

quote:

Anybody... does it make any difference (to serps) if my 'best' optimised page is my home page or just any other doorway into my site?


No.

EDIT: Added the last reply.



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 16:19:53)

Thanks Mojo

It's a shame really that links are so powerful as that precludes quality small sites from competing (without a lot of extra work to obtain all the links needed) - but - such is life! Except... am I right in my observations of the other big engines (Yahoo, MSN, AOL) that they do not study backlinks - or at least only give them a very small credit?

Anyhow...

quote:

This is done by the backlinks and the anchor text and/or the text surrounding the backlink.


Can you give an example <in code> of a 'good' backlink aiming at a set term - like (e.g.) "badger food"



dpf -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 16:24:07)

quote:

AOL)
they purchase search results from Google- they dont run their own search



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 16:38:47)

Ah, useful Dan - but I have noticed that a site in Google doesn't always appear on AOL!? How come?



Mojo -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 16:47:04)

quote:

am I right in my observations of the other big engines (Yahoo, MSN, AOL) that they do not study backlinks - or at least only give them a very small credit?


No. They all use backlinks as a part of their algo. Google made it famous, but they all play the link game. If you think about it, it makes sense. Links are like votes. If one site has many votes and the votes seem to come from a certain segment of the web population, then when a search is done that relates to that demographic the heavily voted on site would seem a good choice for a top 10 position. The problem is search engines didn't realize how easily people could stuff the voting box.

Now, search engines are looking for new ways to count the vote.

Google gave a glimpse of the future in their recent Patent filing with such things as: tracking user behavior through tools such as the toolbar or desktop search, tracking bookmarks, cache, favorites, temp-files through the same tools, changes in backlinks, domain registration etc...

Edit: tried to fix a long run-on sentence... no luck



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 17:13:20)

quote:

Edit: tried to fix a long run-on sentence... no luck


don't wurry about the gramma and spilling errors - the facts are all we need - ta[;)]



dpf -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 17:38:37)

quote:

don't wurry about the gramma
well whut aboot the grammpa?



tinaalice -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 18:15:34)

Gotta join you on that one ... I think my little blurb on the right says UK? <grin>

Yes for the reasons I stated, you can still have flash but be more subtle about it.... use it in the mousovers of buttons use it in the logo header area .. less is more... things like that always catch my eye, flash splash I just look for the entry link or skip link. The more clever a flash artist in being subtle the more I lean to learning more.

Search engines want to see content, they want to follow text links throughout your site.. and visitors want to not have to click to get any information.. if they are interested in what you can do .. then your portfolio is going to sell you to them.. flash is not the only thing you do... but they don't know that unless they enter the site.

Your right there....I'm finding it murder working on keywords.. and try doing it with abstract artwork...Thanks for the link.:)

Tina



tinaalice -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/1/2005 18:23:23)

If what you are doing is working 100% don't even think of changing a thing <smile>

Tina



RickP -> RE: file names/directory names and Google - question! (9/2/2005 6:26:28)

Tina

If it's abstract art you do, you might also want to seek a link exchange with this site (another of mine[;)]) www.ukabstract.co.uk



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