SEO and H1, H2 Headings (Full Version)

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Starhugger -> SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/25/2005 20:57:12)

This might be covered in another thread but I can't seem to find any reference to it. I am wondering if it improves search engine optimisation when we use the H1, H2, etc. heading format designations for headings and subheadings? I have used them only haphazardly, and often replaced them with my own CSS formats, according the the font size, colour, etc. that I want. But I've been seeing vague references online to the idea that the Hn designations actually mean something to search engines besides just formatting. I had thought they were just standard heading designations for programming convenience, but I'm wondering if I may be missing out on some SEO strategy by not using them consistently.

So... two questions:

1) Do the Hn formats assist search engines to make sense of a site (and therefore maybe send traffic your way more readily)?

2) Does it still do the same thing if you modify the Hn format using a CSS class designation? (e.g., H1.redbold, where "redbold" is a defined class in CSS)

Thanks for the help!

Starhugger

P.S. - I'm not sure if this belongs in Beginning Web Design or CSS, so move it if it's not in the right place.




BobbyDouglas -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 2:44:55)

Honestly, some people will say it is needed, others will say they won't help SE and just focus on backlinks.

Will they hurt your site if you use them? No. Is there a chance it will help? Yes, there is a chance.

If you follow the link in my sig, you will see how I implemented the <h1> and <h2> tags. IMO they should always be used. Just be sure to only have one <h1>, and no more than a few <h2>s per page. You don't want to have every few words in a paragraph use. I think I made pretty good use of them on my site. You will see that the main paragraph has an <h1> while the sub boxes are <h2>, and any subsection under the <h2> has an <h3>.

quote:

P.S. - I'm not sure if this belongs in Beginning Web Design or CSS, so move it if it's not in the right place.

- SEO forum seems more appropirate [;)]



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 9:37:59)


quote:

If you follow the link in my sig, you will see how I implemented the <h1> and <h2> tags. IMO they should always be used. Just be sure to only have one <h1>, and no more than a few <h2>s per page. You don't want to have every few words in a paragraph use. I think I made pretty good use of them on my site. You will see that the main paragraph has an <h1> while the sub boxes are <h2>, and any subsection under the <h2> has an <h3>.

Nicely done site! I notice you don't use CSS sub-formatting (e.g., H2.boldblue). I'm not sure if doing that will alter any SE benefit there might be in using the Hn, but I suspect it wouldn't. I use different colours, for instance, in the same heading levels on various articles, and with some of them there are different size fonts or spacing, so I would need to modify the Hn lines according to my needs in that article. And I really hate having to go in and hard-code the CSS styles in-line, so I just created the CSS class formats instead...although I've changed how I use those over time, too.

The diversity of formatting in similar articles is why I finally stopped using the Hn's altogether. Since I was ignoring and overriding the default formatting so often anyway, they just weren't useful to me as formatting tools. So unless they had some other use or benefit (which I wasn't aware of until recently), there wasn't any point in using them. But I've been seeing vague references to them being use by SEs to get a sense of the key topics on a page, so I don't want to miss out on the SEs noticing my site! Goodness knows it's hard enough to get their attention! [:D]

quote:

SEO forum seems more appropirate [;)]


Thanks Mr. Bob! [:)] I never thought of this one as I don't go into it that often. Maybe I should! [;)] Thanks for your help.

Starhugger



Mojo -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 10:21:55)

quote:

they just weren't useful to me as formatting tools.


It's the organization of data that makes the Hn tags useful. As BobbyDouglas said; try to have only 1 H1 tag on each page. It shoud always be above any other Hn tags. Use H1 tags for the page topic, H2 tags for a topical headings, H3 tags for sub-topical titles etc. The idea is to make it easier for the search bot (as well as people) to easily understand the meaning of the page and any important ideas.

IMO, keeping the H1 tag in it's original format has an advantage over H1 tags that have been CSS altered.



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 10:33:22)

quote:

IMO, keeping the H1 tag in it's original format has an advantage over H1 tags that have been CSS altered.

Thanks very much Mojo! What kind of advantage do you see in keeping the original H1 format? Do the bots and crawlers not read the altered Hn's in the same way? Maybe they skip over them or don't consider them as having the same topic relevance?

Starhugger



Mojo -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 10:47:41)

quote:

Maybe they skip over them or don't consider them as having the same topic relevance?


No, the bots aren't going to skip the content. Size or font choice doesn't change relevance, but it may alter importance.
The H1 tag should be the most important heading or idea on the page. That is why it's in-your-face big. You can't miss it. Using the Hn tags makes it easier to organize data for search bots. Altering them is just that - an alteration. It may or may not make a difference, but I try to play the odds.

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5



BobbyDouglas -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 13:00:41)

What's the point of having h1.something if you only have 1 h1 per page? Multiple different pages loading the same CSS file?



Mojo -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 13:14:29)

My thoughts of a single H1 tag per page is very few pages need more than one. Having several H1's has been a lame spam technique for a long time. I would be concerned that multipel H1 tags formatted to look like 14px bold could trigger a dampening filter. Another fear would be multiple H1 tags combined with some other search engine issues either on or off the site could trigger the same filter.

I run headlong into filters all the time so I am a bit jumpy about them.

quote:

What's the point of having h1.something if you only have 1 h1 per page?


In an external CSS file it is that much easier to change site wide settings.



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 14:11:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas

What's the point of having h1.something if you only have 1 h1 per page? Multiple different pages loading the same CSS file?

Yes. With rare exceptions (special pages, like printable pages) all my CSS stuff is in one central file. That way I can change it and tinker with it easily.

Mojo, I think Bobby meant why modify the H1 with CSS formatting if there's only one per page anyway? I think he meant I could specify the H1 formatting in the document, since it's only being used once in that document.

Starhugger



BobbyDouglas -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 14:23:42)

Well I was wondering why you would have a different h1 class if you are only gong to use one per page. If you have a printable page, usually that uses its own CSS file anyways.

Just trying to understand why you would need multiple h1 styles if you only use one h1 per page.



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/26/2005 23:50:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mojo

No, the bots aren't going to skip the content. Size or font choice doesn't change relevance, but it may alter importance.
The H1 tag should be the most important heading or idea on the page. That is why it's in-your-face big. You can't miss it. Using the Hn tags makes it easier to organize data for search bots. Altering them is just that - an alteration. It may or may not make a difference, but I try to play the odds.

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5

Hi Mojo,

Thanks for your reply. I wanted to take a look at the W3 page you referred me to before I replied. Thanks for your info. I may have to rethink my use of formats and designations, to take full advantage of the Hn stuff. Or maybe reorganise my use of style sheets. Thanks for the help. [:)]

Starhugger



Mojo -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/27/2005 0:02:13)

Remember - a few years ago Google had an algo update commonly called Florida. Innumerable sites dropped out of the search rankings. They seemed to be mostly mom and pop shops that were following all the rules - it seemed that far more white hat sites were dropped than grey or black. It was a huge disaster for webmasters.

Remember - Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It may be better to have some pages with Hn tags and others without. I prefer two of every site when possible and mix up the site techniques.



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/27/2005 13:37:12)

So much for an ordered universe, huh? LOL [:D] Google seems to change its strategy frequently. A lot of legit sites got dropped off the face of Google earlier this year too. You make a good case for diversifying so that something is bound to drop through the filters. Thanks again for your help. [:)]

Starhugger



Reflect -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/29/2005 9:37:17)

quote:

Well I was wondering why you would have a different h1 class if you are only gong to use one per page.


You wouldn't.

Why declare it on every single page, being fonts, color, etc.? What if you want to change the font family? You would have to touch every page. Even if something is only used once on a page times that by how many pages and you have your justification.

Take care,

Brian



Tailslide -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (8/29/2005 9:57:41)

You could have multiple CSS classes and declare them in the external stylesheet - as you might do with navigation "active" links. You'd give each <body> tag an id (like for instance <body id="home"> or <body id="contact">)and then you'd just do this in your CSS:

#home h1 {color:blue;}
#contact h1 {color:red;}
#faq h1 {color: green;}

If you had 5 pages, you'd have 5 rules - but then again since their in an external sheet it's quicker to change them than go into each page of HTML.

People like pages to look similar throughout the site so you wouldn't want to change the style of the headings massively from page to page - but if done carefully this could work.



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/14/2005 19:54:23)

I wanted to bump this thread up to share the results that I've had since I (finally) got around to optimising my headings with H1, H2, etc., a little over a month or so ago. I've had a HUGE improvement in my search engine traffic!!

We're talking like 10-fold at least! I uploaded the new pages part-way into the month, as I recall. And I hit 10x my Google hits from the previous month. And I've already surpassed last month's Google numbers and it's only half way through the month yet! I'm absolutely delighted! [:D]

I'm sure the H's are most of the reason for the change. My PR also increased by one point last month on a few "landing" pages, which probably is a factor too, but I suspect that was also partly due to the SEO work. Chicken/egg. I had also SEO'ed a couple of pages for keywords to experiment and that definitely helped their hits too, but mostly I'm getting more SE traffic all over now. Yippeeee!!! [sm=yupi3ti.gif] (Love that little guy... LOL)

Thanks for everyone's help with this! [:)]

Starhugger



BobbyDouglas -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/15/2005 2:34:23)

Any idea about the increase in the number of backlinks?



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/15/2005 9:34:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BobbyDouglas

Any idea about the increase in the number of backlinks?

Not unless you count the link harvester farm sites. [:'(] I've never found a reliable way to search for my backlinks anyway. The Google link:domain picks up some but far from all. Just searching for my domain picks up others but not all. Searching for my site's name picks up others. I find my stats are as reliable a source as any, where it lists the referring inbound traffic source sites. In any case, I don't think it has affected the inbound links other than these cheesy sites that harvest links into a database and rotate them to make it seem like they update daily. They're just billboards for ads. They aren't even legitimate directories.

Starhugger



Kitka -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/15/2005 14:50:52)

quote:

these cheesy sites that harvest links into a database


Report them to Google as spam and get them removed from the search results:

http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html

If everyone did it, searching would be a more pleasant experience.



tinaalice -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/15/2005 19:48:14)

Following google's own guidelines helps


http://www.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=357
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

Tina



laticca8 -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/17/2005 0:05:15)

just wanted to say thank to Starhugger for coming back and sharing your results. and congrats! [;)]



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/18/2005 20:02:01)

You're welcome, and thanks, Laticca8. Glad to be able to pass along some help when I've received so much here. [:)]

Starhugger



GolfMad -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/24/2005 6:09:37)

I have avoided using H tags because they always take up such a large amount of space beneath them and you cannot use <br> with them.

Seeing this article I would like to use them more .

Can the spacing be changed in normal FrontPage format, or if code is needed in an external Style sheet would someone be kind enough to give an example to stop the wasted line spacing and allow use of the <br> tag perhaps.

Thanks
Phil



Kitka -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/24/2005 6:20:11)

quote:

Can the spacing be changed in normal FrontPage format


Yes:

Using FrontPage, highlight the H1 (or any) paragraph.

Then go to menu bar > Format > Paragraph

Change the box (field) called "Spacing Before:" from blank to 0.
Change the box (field) called "Spacing After:" from blank to 0.

Click OK and you're done. If zero doesn't suit, up the number till you are happy [:)]



GolfMad -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/24/2005 6:34:09)

Thank you Kitka.

Does anyone have the code for external css style sheet which would make all H tags in a web perform as normal spacing please?

Phil



Kitka -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/24/2005 6:39:14) 

h1,h2,h3,h4 {margin:0px; padding:0px;}


If zero is too little, increase number till you are happy. [;)]



GolfMad -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/24/2005 6:57:45)

Thanks again Kitka

I really will try and use them more now and hope my ranking improves even half as good as the example from Starhugger[:)]

Regards
Phil



Starhugger -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/25/2005 3:00:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GolfMad

I have avoided using H tags because they always take up such a large amount of space beneath them and you cannot use <br> with them.

Seeing this article I would like to use them more .

Can the spacing be changed in normal FrontPage format, or if code is needed in an external Style sheet would someone be kind enough to give an example to stop the wasted line spacing and allow use of the <br> tag perhaps.

Hey Phil. I have used <br /> in Hn headings successfully, so I'm not sure why that hasn't worked for you. Maybe you could give us an example of an attempt that didn't work.

What I do to control the font size, colour, etc., on a particular page is to use sub-classes, so that the tag reads something like <H1 class="bold24green"> Then I have the class defined in my CSS as something like:

.bold24green {
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 24pt;
color: green;
}

I can also define the before and after line spacing in that CSS too, or I can define it in-line.

Hope that helps! [:)]

Starhugger



GolfMad -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/25/2005 3:47:45)

Hi Starhugger

Thanks for your help.

In all FrontPage use, if you make a line break aftera h tag, the text carries on in the same format as the h tag above it, you cannot change it without altering the format of the heading as well.

A simple site I have just finished:
www.jam-bs.co.uk
was listed on Pixel Mill as a css controlled template and although I normally only use these templates for the basic layout structure, I noticed on set up there is a theme for it; and over the years I have grown to hate FrontPage themes; they are so cumbersome to work out where to make changes and sometimes it is more luck than judgement if the change actually affects what you want.
So stuck with this theme, which does have an external CSS sheet, I added the h1,h2 code that Kitka kindly provided and it did not work. So I thought that the Theme would be overiding it and when formating the theme found it was. I then tried to change the h tag style in the Format/Theme (using Text and Format/Paragraph) and while the text size and family changes the spacing did not.
I have lost so many battles with Themes over the years, that I just gave up and removed the h tag. I bet it would work with just an external style sheet but how did the developer get just the tags he is using on the style sheet to overide the Theme.

I do not use any theme features such shared borders so I don't need it - sorry for the rant but I would appreciate the external css code that Kitka kindly gave confimed that it would remove the gigantic spacing, or even better some additions to it so I can get a flavour of making this h tag just work like normal text.

Many thanks

Phil



Kitka -> RE: SEO and H1, H2 Headings (11/25/2005 4:01:27)

I had no idea you were using FP themes when I answered your question, or I would have answered differently - sorry.

I think you have discovered one of the reasons people in the know avoid them.

I don't know if this will work, but it is worth trying:

I have styled this with "inline CSS". Copy and paste it onto a page in your themed site, save it, then view in a browser. It might solve your problem. 

<h1 style="margin:0; padding:0;">Heading Here</h1>
<p>Content here</p>


If this doesn't work, I doubt anything will. If it does work the drawback will be applying the style to every page in the site. [8|]

Good luck!



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