Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage

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DEEPEE -> Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 7:25:23)
Here's the deal. I am looking to build my first website. I have a basic understanding of HTML but I don't know where to go from here. Some people are suggesting to just use Notepad and others are suggesting to use something like FrontPage or Dreamweaver. What do you all suggest? thanks I've just realised this is a site for people who use FrontPage so I guess you would all recommend that. My computer came with Microsoft Works so I don't have FrontPage. Is there a particular version that is better than the others and how much will it cost me?

Tailslide -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 7:44:29)
The problem is Deepee that people will recommend the way they learnt - they will believe this (probably) to be the best way. It also depends on what you're intending to do with the skills you learn. Are you just planning on a single, personal site or are you intending to build on your skills and eventually start building sites professionally? If you're working on a single site - personal, not business then I'd look at a wysiwyg editor like FrontPage or Dreamweaver. As both of those cost money (and DW costs quite a bit of money) I'd maybe start by looking at Nvu (pronounced en-vu) which is free and claims to produce standard compliant code. You can download Nvu here: http://www.nvu.com/ If you're planning on doing more than just dabble - then I'd go with the Notepad option. In fact, I'd go with Notepad ++ or HTML-kit (go to download.com to get them) and get a few really good books. My personal view (bearing in mind what I said in the first bit - yes this is how I learnt to do this) is that you want to learn using the most basic tools to get a good understanding of what you're doing. I do this for a living (web design that is, not nagging people on forums) and I use HTML-kit and Notepad because I find them easier and I retain control. Edit: we don't all use FrontPage here - there's quite a few of us who sneak in here just because we enjoy the company - or because we have no life!

DEEPEE -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 7:55:56)
Would it not be hard to create a professional looking website with just Notepad? When I say I have a basic understanding of HTML, I mean basic. I'm not sure I would be able to create a whole site with navigation bars & links etc with just Notepad. Do you have a website I can look at that was created with just Notepad?

Tailslide -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 8:29:54)
Yeah - my website, in fact all of my sites were created in Notepad and HTML-Kit (I use that because it colours the tags and makes them easier to see). I'm hoping that they're fairly professional looking! It's not the tool you use - it's what you put into it that counts. If you're planning on just doing this for fun - occasionally - then you might be better off with a wysiwyg like Nvu or FrontPage. There's no point in making your life deliberately harder just for a one-off web page. If you want to do this really properly or for a living then you need to go into the code more - books, websites whatever. Then (in my view) the simpler tools you use the better - it gives you a better understanding of what you're doing plus you're not spending time figuring out how the package itself works/doesn't work. You just type in the mark-up and off you go! My point is to do it properly it's the mark-up (code) that matters, not the tool. Any HTML/XHTML webpage (front-end) can be completely created purely using Notepad - view it locally in your browser as you go along.

backstage -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:31:42)
Excellent advice from Tailslide but let me take a shot at your question from a different perspective. If you are going to build a site with only a couple of pages, learning with Notepad or another text editor is fine. If, on the other hand, your site is going to have a lot of pages and internal links, site management becomes a real issue. Front Page keeps track of all your pages. If you get a bunch of pages built and then decide to rearrange them, you simply drag pages to their new locations and Front Page will handle changing all the links for you. This is really important if you're not totally certain of the overall structure at the outset and will end up rearranging and regrouping pages several times until you get what you want. Tailslide is correct in that building your site with Notepad will force you to learn the proper syntax for every element on your pages. When you complete a working site with Notepad, you will have a lot of knowledge to carry forward. However, this will take a lot of time and trial and error. My advice? If you can afford it, start with a WYSIWYG editor to get the site up and running. This will teach you the broader concepts of site organization and function. Then, if you want to develop your skills to a deeper level, rework everything with Notepad until you learn every last detail. There are many many built-in functions in Front Page and Dreamweaver that will save you time. These programs track down errors, guide you through adding functions, provide for easy uploading to a server, and many many more. Which program to use? Depends on your objective. My objective is to get content up on the web quickly, so I use WYSIWYG. I use Front Page because I couldn't afford Dreamweaver. To help you make your decision, apply the Magic Triangle. Good - Fast - Cheap. Pick Two. You cannot have all three so decide what is important to you. 1. If you want a good site, use any editor, and be prepared to spend the necessary time to get the site up and running. 2. If you want to develop your site quickly, use Front Page or Dreamweaver. Learning to build a site using Notepad is going to take a good bit longer. 3. If you want to develop your site cheaply, use Notepad, and forget about the time it takes. Good luck and have fun building your site.

coreybryant -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:36:51)
If you understand other MS products and how they work - use MS Frontpage. If you are not too familiar with them, DW can be good too. You have a basic HTML understanding? Learn CSS also now. I learned HTML from Frontpage myself and I can handcode a compliant website in XHTML / HTML. Each WYSIWYG editor will have its flaws and will end up putting bloated code into your website. Once you know what is bloated code, you can edit this code accordingly.

DEEPEE -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:44:04)
Thanks everyone. I have a lot of work ahead of me. I don't have FrontPage, how much will it cost me and which is the best edition to get?

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:44:06)
quote: Each WYSIWYG editor will have its flaws and will end up putting bloated code into your website not dreamweaver

Tailslide -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:48:30)
quote: Good - Fast - Cheap. Pick Two. 1. If you want a good site, use any editor, and be prepared to spend the necessary time to get the site up and running. 2. If you want to develop your site quickly, use Front Page or Dreamweaver. Learning to build a site using Notepad is going to take a good bit longer. 3. If you want to develop your site cheaply, use Notepad, and forget about the time it takes. I like that! Don't forget Nvu though for point number 2 - it's free! Final thing from me. Check your site using Firefox as you go along - it's free too. Then check it in Opera (also now free). Finally check it in IE. IE is a non-standard compliant browser - it's much much easier to get the site right first then tweak it to work in IE than try to do it the other way around - it will add years onto your life and turn your hair grey!

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:52:33)
quote: it will add years onto your life and turn your hair grey! i did that without web design!!!!!!!

Tailslide -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:54:28)
Yeah Dan - that was the re-mortgage to buy Dreamweaver!

caz -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 9:57:04)
quote: ORIGINAL: dpf quote: Each WYSIWYG editor will have its flaws and will end up putting bloated code into your website not dreamweaver As said before, any editor used in design, as opposed to code view will do this - even the immaculate Dreamweaver. [img]http://www.it-class.net/images/smile/add12.gif[/img]

Giomanach -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 10:23:36)
http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/m-192823/tm.htm#192823 [sm=yupi3ti.gif]

bobby -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 10:54:53)
you can build a quality website with notepad as easily as with any commercial editor... it all depends on your skill set. People mistakenly assume that by spending $100 or $300 on a fancy program it will make their site look better... not at all true. They are all simply tools, and none can make you a better developer. I would recommend starting with what you have, maybe try the free trial download for DW and see if you like it enough to shell out the money for it. I learned on Frontpage, swithced to Firstpage 2000, and now use Notepad ++ for all of my development work. It all depends on you. What works for you, what you feel comfortable with, etc

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 11:06:45)
quote: Is there a particular version that is better than the others and how much will it cost me? we havent really addressed this part of your question. IF, after reading all the above, you want to go with FP, a lot depends upon your finances. FP2003 is ( I beleive) the latest. If money is tight, you could go on ebay and get fp2002 which is a good place to start. iwould not recommend FP2000. If you (or someone in your family) is a student, you can get very cheap educational version of FP or DW - full functionality. As you sift thru all of the advice, understand one major thing - to a great extent, the decision involves how much you are or are not dedicated at this time to learning html beyond basic. If you are, trust me, it isnt hard and a notepad (and one good book) route is a great way to go. However, if you are not committed to mastering html, then go with wysiwyg.

bobby -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 12:56:18)
Figure Frontpage '03 is going to run around the $120 (US) mark, where DW is closer to $300 (US) Firstpage, notepad ++, nvu, etc are all free for download.

mar0364 -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 13:13:10)
I would go with Notepad to start with. Once you get an idea what you are doing download one of the free ones. If after that you want to go to the next level (asp, php, asp.net or coldfusion) I would go with Dreamweaver simply because it offer access to all of these languages fairly easy. Rich

DEEPEE -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 13:55:50)
Does anyone know a website with all the HTML commands because I do not know how to add tables, frames etc. Thanks

bobby -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 14:26:22)
www.w3schools.com is a good place to start

Tailslide -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 14:28:27)
Here's quite a good tutorial: http://htmldog.com/guides/htmlbeginner/ Tip: don't use frames - they're a "Bad Thing" TM

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 14:37:16)
I heard doc types are unimportant - is that true?

womble -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 14:47:10)
Can I just muddy the waters a little further by putting in a vote for Topstyle Pro? - http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/index.asp (I seem to remember there's also free version of it TopStyle Lite) - it's a cross between notepad and wysiwyg in that you get the code view (which it highlights in different colours for you) and a preview pane where you can view the effects of what you're doing. It handles all varieties of HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0/1.1 and CSS1 and 2. All the html/xhtml tags/CSS elements are in there and as you start typing it brings up a drop down list for you to pick the appropriate tag from. The Pro version's around �50 (not sure what that equates to in $). I started off on FP2003, designed my first site with it, found out a little more about html, didn't like FP's code bloat and lack of CSS handling, switched to xhtml/css and to TS and haven't looked back since. Just my 2p's worth...[:)]

bobby -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:15:45)
quote: I heard doc types are unimportant - is that true? trying to stir up trouble again aren't you...? [:D] Topstyle is pretty slick, I've dabbled. A lot of folks like Arachnophylia too, but I didn't like that one personally. I use Notepad++ because it does everything I need it to do: Numbered lines of code Multiple files open in tabs Color codes tags and script - customizable tag colors - multiple language support (from HTML to CSS to ASP, php, C++, etc, etc, etc) - unique custom colors for each language/script/tag set you're playing with Saves in any format (.asp, .php, .html) It will also change color coding when you have tags nested imporperly, use incorrect syntax in the CSS, etc. It also allows you to close or save just the active tab or all open tabs at once, which is kind of neat too. And no added code or trying to think for you like some other editors that have been mentioned [8\|] Plus it's open source and a free (as in beer) to download... you can't go wrong. Absolutely no file management, FTP or WYSIWYG tho [:D]

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:16:28)
quote: Just my 2p's worth... dear,,that is more like 50 pounds worth

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:17:43)
quote: (as in beer) you always say that - where is the free beer? are you trying to stir up trouble again?

Spooky -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:21:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: DEEPEE Does anyone know a website with all the HTML commands because I do not know how to add tables, frames etc. Thanks I think youve answered your own question - you will find it best to get one of the WYSIWYG editors listed above. They will create the code visually and then you can examine the source to see how its done.

womble -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:23:42)
[8\|] May have to check out Notepad++... Pdf stirring up trouble? That's the only reason he hangs around here isn't it? [:D] Lucky for you Tail (aka the DOCTYPE Queen) is offline, otherwise you'd be in line for a good slapping! Naughty boy! You should know better!!!! [sm=lol.gif]

dpf -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:30:33)
quote: otherwise you'd be in line for a good slapping trying to get me to hang around?

Spooky -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 15:31:31)
Stay on topic please.

Tailslide -> RE: Notepad v Dreamweaver v FrontPage (9/29/2005 16:21:48)
quote: ORIGINAL: dpf I heard doc types are unimportant - is that true? I think that's rather harsh - I've always quite liked Doc types - the white coats and stethoscopes... (Spooky: Stay on Target! Stay on Target!)

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