Query re. use of CSS (Full Version)

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tac1 -> Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 5:06:30)

Hello everyone
I am a trifle confused! Having read posts all over the place it seems that, perhaps, CSS is preferred to tables in the design of web pages. However, major sites such as MSN, BBC etc seem to be using tables, not CSS.

Equally, is Frontpage able to accept CSS input in similar manner to, say, TopStyle or StyleMaster? Lastly, why would one use TS or SM instead of Frontpage?

At this time I sort of understand page layout using tables, but am not yet comfortable with CSS code.

Comments would be appreciated.



caz -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 7:29:13)

The BBC site does indeed use css See here, but as it is a well established site retrofitting would be an enormously expensive affair for them so they apply the css to tables ( it can be done[;)]).

FP is not particularly good for composing css, so I use Stylemaster to write the css and then save it as a linked external stylesheet into my FP web. You could use Topstyle in that way too. FP handles the linking very well.

If you "sort of" understand tables, it may be better for you to get a good grip of them before digressing into css. What you could do is to experiment using css for font styling first before going onto page layout with it. That way you will become familiar with the coding conventions.

Use the tutorials on this site for further help in this, they are very good. Also the tutorials in Stylemaster are excellent for beginning to learn about css.

HTH
Carol



Tailslide -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 7:33:00)

Hi tac1

It is fairly confusing I'm afraid! And everyone's partisan to some degree or another.

Ok so here's my take on it.

Tables are a relatively simple way to layout a website especially if your are using a WYSIWYG editor such as FP or DW etc. Tables work fairly well cross-browser as far as layouts go - your site should look pretty similar in the vast majority of browsers. That's the good points.

The bad points of tables are that they can be very "messy" - deeply nested and confusing to edit. They can also be confusing for people not using visual browsers - text browsers etc. which can make them inaccessible. They can take longer to download because your browser downloads the whole table before displaying it. Tables are in themselves a lot of code and so add to your page weight.

CSS good points are that pages styled with CSS are much lighter weight if used properly (in external stylesheets) and can make editing layouts and presentation throughout a site very easy. There's a certain "zen" to CSS which is quite satisfying - it's just more logical in my view. CSS pages are usually more accessible too.

The bad points are that due to bad browser support (IE is the prime culprit) you need to fiddle a lot to get your sites looking the same cross brower. Very old browsers such as NN4 don't support CSS well at all and need to be either ignored or fed a plain unstyled page.
It takes a while to learn CSS and it can be quite frustrating initially - especially the layout side of things.

There has been a movement over the last 8 years or so towards "web standards" whereby the W3C (world wide Web consortium) publishes it's recommendations about what code should be used to build websites and how web browsers and other technologies should interpret those recommendations. It currently recommends using CSS for layout and presentation rather than tables (semantically tables are for tabular data not layout). This would all be lovely if all browsers actually followed the recommendations - but they don't. All browsers have their little bugs and IE in particular ignores many of the recommendations. It's hoped that IE7 when it comes out will finally meet most of the recommendations (CSS2 was written in 1998).

So the general movement seems to be towards a more semantic web with sites that are accessible to as many people as possible and easier to edit. Many big news sites still use tables. Some are better than others - table layouts can be reasonably accessible, it just takes planning. Some big news sites offer complete text-only alternative sites (BBC does this).

I've never really used FP so I can't say with confidence how it handles CSS. From posts I've seen here it can be a bit of a pain - adding in inline styles which defeat the whole purpose of CSS. I think if you really know FP well then you could probably deal with it. It might be easier to go to something more basic like Notepad, HTML-kit (free!) or Topstyle (not used this but I hear good things) and really get a grip on how it all works.

Also - keep up to date with the CSS websites listed in the CSS links on this forum - I've learnt more from those than any books.

Good luck!






caz -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 7:43:12)

quote:

From posts I've seen here it can be a bit of a pain - adding in inline styles which defeat the whole purpose of CSS. I think if you really know FP well then you could probably deal with it


It only adds inline styles when you work in Design View, not code view and I think that is fairly common amongst all WYSIWYG html editors. So this is a good point to make here. If you are going to learn CSS and apply it to webs made with html editors you do need to work in code view and understand the html as well.



jaybee -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 7:56:27)

It is possible to apply styles in design view without ending up with inline.

Once you have an external stylesheet then if you want to apply an h1 tag for example, you highlight the text and then press CTRL Q. You get a pop-up that allows you to type in the tag.

Not sure if that works in anything prior to FP2003 though.



caz -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 8:01:52)

You learn something new every day with jaybee [:D]



dpf -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 8:06:15)

yea - "Ask Jaybee" .......[:D]



jaybee -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 8:18:25)

quote:

Ask Jaybee"


There is a limit. Expanding Demis Roussos suits are where I draw the line. [:D]



rdouglass -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 9:28:10)

I'm relatively new to CSS myself but my one piece of advice is that if you want to build your page in CSS, *don't* try to use a table analogy or comparisons on the page. I only got confused.

Tables are neat, orderly boxes that line up beside and above/below each other.

CSS builds upon the analogy of boxes *inside* each other - bigger boxes containing smaller boxes.

To me it only confused me trying to think in "table" terms when doing a layout in CSS. Oh sure, you can stuff some CSS inside a table cell but you loose a lot of the advantages of using CSS when you do this.

It is a paradigm shift but it helped me a lot.



Kitka -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/7/2005 17:47:44)

quote:

Not sure if that works in anything prior to FP2003 though.


It doesn't.

In FP2002 you can apply styles, which have already been defined in an external stylesheet or in headers, using the dropdown box on the far left of the formatting toolbar (where it shows "Normal"). Or you can view the floating "Styles" toolbar and use that.



tac1 -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 4:10:44)

Thank you all so much for such informative responses, they really are very helpful.

I think I may use tables with CSS external stylesheet within Frontpage for the moment as this is something I now understand (I think!).

That said, I will also try & learn how to design with CSS. The amount of information on the web is enormous & I suspect that I could quite happily spend several weeks/months simply reading more & more sites!

Once again, my sincere thanks for your help & advice.



Tailslide -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 4:33:28)

Good plan tac1. Word of warning. Once you do start looking at all those sites and giving CSS a real go - you'll get hooked and it will take over your life. Seriously. You won't want to use any other methods and you'll drive yourself completely barking mad trying to get it all sorted out!

I used to be sane.... [8D]



dpf -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 7:05:04)

quote:

you'll drive yourself completely barking mad trying to get it all sorted out!

I used to be sane....
<note>We have seen no evidence of her sanity here </endnote>



jaybee -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 7:12:24)

[image]http://www.asturcon3.com/emicons/KOLOBOK/aiwan_smiles/tease.gif[/image]



womble -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 10:14:06)

I was crazy before I started using css and my doctors confirm that it improved my condition. All of the me's agree. [:D]



tac1 -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 10:40:29)


quote:

ORIGINAL: womble

I was crazy before I started using css and my doctors confirm that it improved my condition. All of the me's agree. [:D]


I begin to be a trifle concerned with respect to collateral damage resulting from the use of CSS!!!! [sm=unsure.gif]



dpf -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 10:48:12)

be afraid...very, very afraid



womble -> RE: Query re. use of CSS (11/8/2005 10:51:06)

[:D]

actually they're not too sure whether it's the result of heavy css usage or hanging around here too much [8D]



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