Forms and accessibility issues (Full Version)

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womble -> Forms and accessibility issues (11/18/2005 20:45:47)

At the moment I'm trying to do an online form that’s going to have to span several pages as it’s quite (very) long. Having only done single page forms before (which I've done css based using a php submission script) I've spent today looking into scripts to handle multiple pages here and places like hotscripts.com. The problem is that at the moment I'm using php Dynaform which doesn't seem to cope with multi-page forms. I was hoping (perhaps forlornly) that there may be some bit of javascript I could cut ‘n’ paste to pass values between the pages while still using the php Dynaform submission script, but I'm having trouble finding anything.

To cut a very long story short, and this feel like a sell-out because part of me hates the idea of not coding it myself, control freak that I am, but I've found some software that creates forms, seems infinitely adaptable, but it uses table layout, and I'm very conscious that using a tables layout can create accessibility problems, and being an accessibility advocate I want to try and avoid using tables if at all possible. I'm figuring I could try and make the table layout css-p based, but it’s going to be a hell of a long form and I haven't really got a week to spare, so I'm (horror!) considering purchasing the software, using it and leaving the form table based. I have to admit since switching to xhtml/css I haven’t touched a table layout or used tables at all, and the old brain cells are rather rusty so I'll have to do some revision on how to make tables accessible, but I'm figuring that'd be easier than trying to convert it all to css.

I know tables aren't bad per ce, but I avoid using them if at all possible. Just wondering what the view is on using tables for form layout. Is there a simple cut ‘n’ paste javascript way I could do it? (the passing info between pages, so I can stick to my usual layout and form submission script). Should I be ‘good’ and persevere and try and do it css based, or is using tables an acceptable compromise?



Kitka -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/18/2005 22:11:31)

quote:

is using tables an acceptable compromise?


Personal opinion only...

Tables are not only acceptable, but perfectly natural for forms. Tables are intended for tabular data, and forms are tabular. One of the form-field attributes is "tabindex", so people can tab from one field to the next in the order you specify.

CSS replaces tables for formatting, but not for tables themselves. If tables were unexceptable per se, they would have been deprecated along with the other tags like <center> <applet> <basefont> etc.

Sometimes it seems that people build completely tableless pages to wear as a badge of honour. [8|]

In your shoes, I wouldn't hesitate to use tables.

If you want to go the CSS route there is a nice tutorial here:
http://www.quirksmode.org/css/forms.html



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 5:29:36)

Thanks for your input Kitka. After a good night's sleep following a frustrating day yesterday trying to figure out if there was a simple way I could do this still using the way I'm using at the moment, I'm thinking perhaps I may go down the table route, just for the speed aspect. Using css isn't a problem, just the multiple-page thing. Alternatively, I could just have an incredibly long page....hmmm, I'll have to think about it.



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 7:06:15)

Wombley my dear, easy enough to set your forms up using divs instead of tables, all of mine are. Problem is that most of these forms you can generate are not secure. I've had attacks on 2 sites in the last week and took the forms down fast.

I was using a wizard to set them up and then tweaking them to make them accessible but the wizard wasn't tying down what could go into the form.

I'm currently scouring the web and testing out various different form generators but if I find nothing then I'll have to develop something myself (like you, if there's a quicker route I'll take that)

Watch this space.



dpf -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 10:58:29)

quote:

Sometimes it seems that people build completely tableless pages to wear as a badge of honour.
well said!!!! I think the "no scroll -people hate scrolling down" phobia goes to far. If the form is long - its long. On dial up, you think you are making my life easier by preventing scroll down but you are making it torture because every time I fill out a portion, I have to call a new page which takes forever. Just my thoughts
signed
the thoughtless Mr. PDF



Tailslide -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 11:32:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitka


Sometimes it seems that people build completely tableless pages to wear as a badge of honour. [8|]



There's nothing wrong with using tables as long as they're written properly and used for displaying tabular data. Semantically it would be incorrect to use any other method to display such stuff.

If you want to be by the book and Semantic about it then forms probably aren't tabular data and so shouldn't use tables. However there's no point in crucifying yourself if you can't get the tableless layout to work for you. Make sure everything is labelled, logical and linearizes (hey 3Ls!) and then put your feet up and have a drink.



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 13:07:21)

Thanks for the input everyone. Decision made - I'm going to go with the tables. I did try editing the code and changing the tables to divs, but as usual IE didn't want to play nice and I decided it quicker to go with the tables rather than spend the time trying to get divs to work.



dpf -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 13:09:09)

quote:

I'm going to go with the tables.
..and a nice table cloth too.



caz -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 14:39:52)

A blue check one looks good.
[:D]



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 14:46:06)

quote:

..and a nice table cloth too.

Yes Dan, a nice washable table cloth so it's accessible. [:D]

Form's now set up - now I just have to 'accessify' it. It's logical, linearizes okay and I'm in the process of checking out labels.

Major problem I've discovered (not accessibility wise) is that it doesn't validate (as xhtml - but then again I wasn't really expecting it to) BUT, it's displaying okay in everything, so part of me's very tempted just this once to let the validation go. Hmmmm...[8|] [img]http://ecanus.net/forumsmiles/angel-devil.gif[/img]



dpf -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 15:07:57)

quote:

once to let the validation go.
be a daredevil.. the more important issue with a form is validating the data that gets entered ..and preventing malicious code from being entered.



Kitka -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 15:14:56)

quote:

it doesn't validate (as xhtml - but then again I wasn't really expecting it to)


Why must it be xhtml? What is wrong with using html transitional or strict? Surely you fit the doctype to the page, not abandon validation because it doesn't fit the prefered type. [&:]



Kitka -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 15:33:32)

quote:

I'm currently scouring the web and testing out various different form generators but if I find nothing then I'll have to develop something myself


jaybee, check out the LevelTen form here: http://www.leveltendesign.com/L10Apps/Fm/

I use it for all my complicated forms and have never had any spam problems with it. It only allows posting from domains you specify. I realise that it is possible to fake a referrer, but as far as I know, no-one has attempted that on ours.

I have used the php form generator at the Sitewizard for quick and easy contact forms, and I did get the spam from those.



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 16:09:00)

Thanks Kitka I'll take a look. I'm currently coming down on the side of this one

The sitewizard has cuased me all sorts of heartaches which is a shame as it's a really handy form generator. I've emailed him and told him about the problems so with any luck it might get sorted.



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 16:11:21)

The page I'm dropping it into's xhtml strict but I've tried it as xhtml transitional and it doesn't like that either. I'm now onto html 4.01 transitional and it still doesn't like it, but I've worked out what the problem is.

For some reason best known to itself the id the script's assigning to the form inputs all start with a number, and id and name attributes have to begin with a letter not a number. I've a feeling that's something to do with submitting results to the database and as I'm becoming an expert at b0rking MySQL databases I'm not going anywhere near that, so it looks like it's going to have to stay not entirely valid.



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 16:36:41)

quote:

Hardcoding parameters also avoids a rare, but real security threat of others using spoofed submissions to send e-mail through your script.


I was a little worried when I first looked at Level10 Kitka because it's based onMatt Wright's Formmail and both of my hosts state in no uncertain terms that if you use Matt Wright's from mail or any other derivatives they will shut your account down due to security risks but then I saw the quote above.

That's the baby that's causing the problem with sitewizard's script so it looks like level10 might be a good bet. I'm still going through that other one though as it has the visual code.



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 17:57:35)

This is the one I've been playing around with. At $29.95 (worked out at around (£17) it 'does what it says on the tin'. Ease of use wise it's pretty good and with a bit of tweaking of the css it uses I got a reasonable result pretty quickly.

I'm not entirely happy with the non-valid code it produces (re: the name and id attributes it gives names to that start with numbers), but to get the job done quickly it seems okay. I still like the phpDynaform one because I know how that works, whereas with this I just let the javascript get on with the complicated bits, but it'll do for now.

(and I managed to install it without b0rking the database - yay me! A db b0rking free weekend!!! That's a first for me in a while! [:D][;)])



Kitka -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 20:44:50)

quote:

... id the script's assigning to the form inputs all start with a number, and id and name attributes have to begin with a letter not a number


Ah, I understand. What a PITA.



Kitka -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/19/2005 20:51:21)

quote:

as it has the visual code


Do you mean CAPTCHA?

I feel very iffy about using that because of accessibilty issues. I've seen sites that have a link to a file which "speaks" the number for blind users, but that is getting waaayy too complicated for a simple contact form.

How secure is Mike's form if you don't use CAPTCHA?



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 3:48:34)

It's OK but I have seen a post, might even be in Mike's documentation about having an alt tag generated to match the Captcha code so the readers can get it.

Found another Generator last night that specifically says it handles these attacks. Got to check it out. http://www.bebosoft.com/products/formstogo/

I do have an accessible forms creator but it's tooooooo accessible [:D]



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 15:39:07)

OK, I think I've cracked it.

I'm using two pieces of kit together and I end up with a fully accessible and secure form.

One bit is free Accessible Form Creator
and the other is pay for at the exhorbitant sum of $18 [:D]
Forms to go

Start with AFC and create your form, enter the fields, sizes, order and whether you want tables or css. When finished copy the html and put into an html page, then click on the css button to pick up and save the css for the styling. You'll probably want to play around with it to fit your page but for now just copy and save it.

Open up Forms To Go. Either File>open your html form or drag it onto the FTG desktop. It gives you a list of your fields. Click on each in turn and apply the validations you want.

Go up the the menu and apply send to and other settings, make sure you choose php or asp etc. Then save the results as php, asp.......

As long as you used the same name in both, they'll talk to each other. If you used a different name then change the action" " in the form line in the html page.

I suggest using names nothing to do with form/contact/feedback etc so the hackers don't even bother to test your form. Call it jamtart or something equally stupid.

I spent 5 mins using these two to put together a pretty complex form and as soon as it was done I ran it through the validators.

I had one error. I hadn't put a closing / in one of my meta tags. [&:]Other than that it all validated XHTML and accessible. [sm=yupi3ti.gif]



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 15:51:30)

Jaybee, you're a genius!!! [sm=yupi3ti.gif]

[img]http://ecanus.net/forumsmiles/hug.gif[/img]

/gets busy downloading



Kitka -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 15:58:21)

Excellent jaybee! [image]http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209114.gif[/image]

quote:

Call it jamtart


/suspects womble will call hers minstrels.php [:D]



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 16:24:06)

[sm=whistling.gif] [:D]

My only slight concern is that the form would be somewhat inaccessible if covered in chocolate, and having checked with the W3C I can confirm that Minstrels have infact been depreciated in xhtml and should either be contained in an external stylesheet or called as an include (it's a lot less sticky). [:D]


(what with Lifesaver Sours, Fisherman's Friends and Minstrels popping up all over the place, surely we should get commission! [:D] )

/opens another bag of Minstrels now Taz is safely offline



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 16:40:36)

Just remember to check out all the options in FTG. The demo is free but doesn't have all the security features. Pay the $18 and you can set stuff like referrer so only forms submitted by your site get through.

I am now shattered. Have to get rid of dozens of form generators and then hitting the sack. And no, I'm not getting up early for the birdies. Ungrateful so and sos haven't touched all the new feeders and food that went out this morning!



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/20/2005 17:14:16)

/hands Jaybee a big fluffy blanket

Quite right! Let the ungrateful little avians sing for their breakfast! [:D]



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/21/2005 12:49:40)

Just using this kit in anger and I've found a couple of things worth noting.

1. If the form page you import to FTG has other input fields, FTG will list those as well. You can either use it to validate them (not a good idea) or tell it to ignore them.

2. There is an option for a list of stop words. You can type them direct into the box or set up a text file which is then extendable without having to recreate the script.

This is useful for 2 types of spammers. First the ones who think it's really funny to send crude messages or trying to sell viagra or whatever, and second the automated bots. If you keep an eye on the spam forums you'll find they list attacks and what they contain so you can add odd words to your list

eg: to stop the recent form attacks use
MIME-Version
Content-Type
Content-Transfer-Encoding
bcc:

all terms that would not normally be in a message sent to you. If you're expecting people to use a word in their message, ie, enquiries about Viagra sales then for heavens sake don't put it in the list. [&:]



womble -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/21/2005 16:20:54)

I don't think that the users of the sites I'm working on at the moment would be interested in Viagra sales (but you never know [:D]), but always useful to know. [;)] The stop words option sounds excellent!

You're a genuis/excellent detective Jaybee! [sm=bowdown.gif]

/is grumpy because she had to go into the office today so couldn't play about with forms! [:@]



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/21/2005 17:52:56)

If you think you're grumpy now just wait till you start playing with FTG. [:D]

I just pm'd you to say first time you use it you'll probably get in a pickle as there are so many things to set and there are a couple of oddities in there. I've now got a definitive example I can let you have.

Once you have your FTG bit working you need to save it as a template for the next time. Saves typing it all in again.

For example, your referrers file, you need to make sure you put in all the different options people may have got in their browser to get to your form. I couldn't for the life of me work out why it kept telling me I was a hacker then I twigged I was using a direct call to the page while testing, rather than going in via the normal route. Changed the file to the following and it was fine. 

http://www.my-site.co.uk/talk/index.htm
http://my-site.co.uk/talk/index.htm
www.my-site.co.uk/talk/index.htm
my-site.co.uk/talk/index.htm
http://www.mysite.co.uk/talk/index.htm
http://mysite.co.uk/talk/index.htm
www.mysite.co.uk/talk/index.htm
mysite.co.uk/talk/index.htm
http://www.my-site.co.uk/talk/
http://my-site.co.uk/talk/
www.my-site.co.uk/talk/
my-site.co.uk/talk/
http://www.mysite.co.uk/talk/
http://mysite.co.uk/talk/
www.mysite.co.uk/talk/
mysite.co.uk/talk/


The site has 2 addresses my-site.co.uk and mysite.co.uk, users can come in from both.



jaybee -> RE: Forms and accessibility issues (11/25/2005 10:07:56)

Oooops. I emailed a few of the form wizard owners asking how secure their forms were or pointing out that they weren't remotely secure.

Ummmm, they've all gone apart from the sitewizard and he reckons his latest script is safe.



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