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dpf
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 13:41:23
quote:
M$ launches its new IE7 and it is not compatible with older coding
Rather than having over 90% of the people surfing the web via IE, it would spread into 3-4 major browsers. ok, lets say IE doesnt support older coding. would consumers then abandonit for other browsers that also dont support older coding (FF, OPera)? I dont see that happening.
quote:
Please correct me if I 'm wrong before I fully immerse myself into CSS and W3C validation
well, i would seperat those two. css has merits that are huge in IE and other browsers so css is well worth your time. as to validation and this comment:quote:
I mean, right now, if your project is visible in IE you are pretty much sure about 90% of the visitors will be able to open it without major problems, right? Therefore, our current effort is to make it adhere to the requirements of IE and we're prety much ok, aren't we? .. I try to make sites render in IE6 and current FF - that puts me at about 95% or so. validation is good to do! well worth it
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Tailslide
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 14:23:44
If your sites render 100% in FF and IE6 then you've probably also got Opera (it's got a couple of quirks though), Moz, NN7, Safari, FF mac... in fact you're only likely to have problems in IE4, 5, 5.5, 5.2 mac and NN4.78. which is probably only about 5% of the population at most.
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Mango Himself
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 16:07:39
I figure we can stay ahead of our competitors by including validation and CSS into the list of tools we already use.
One last question to everyone: supposing I handle basic HTML, is the learning curve for CSS a very long one?
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Mango Himself
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 16:28:52
And one last question,
excuse my ignorance but, what are the little stars next to my name? I noticed there was one, then two, now three...is it a tag for M$ to spot dissidents?
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Tailslide
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 17:01:47
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mango Himself
One last question to everyone: supposing I handle basic HTML, is the learning curve for CSS a very long one?
If you're ok with the basic markup then you'll be fine - it's a bit tortuous to start with figuring out the positioning and what's correct CSS and incorrect CSS - but there are loads of sites out there offering help. Get a grip of floats - they're the tricky thing (apart from browser bugs) and start with simple stuff and you'll be fine.
Once you really start with CSS you won't want to go back though - it's lovely seeing so little markup on the webpage and it's great being able to change layouts globally just by fiddling with a couple of rules in your stylesheet.
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Mango Himself
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 19:13:15
Ladies and Gentlemen
something I forgot:
Suppose we create the friendliest site in the web. It runs beautifully in every browse.
Now, three customers have different resolutions in their computers. Will a W3C compliant site adjust to any definition/resolution or will the fonts and other elements look differently?
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Mango Himself
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 19:45:00
I've been centering some simple sites in the middle. I have noticed it seems to retain the look on certain browsers
a couple of examples
http://cabinetrestoration.com/
http://canezpainting.com/
I've noticed that they look ok on IE, Opera and FF. Mac is ok but the flash gives me some issues
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dpf
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/20/2005 20:09:11
quote:
supposing I handle basic HTML, is the learning curve for CSS a very long one? the learning curve to get started - formating some basic things like <p> paragraphs and basic text in not hard at all. once you understand how it works, you can move as gradually or as rapidly as you like. I have been comfortable with css for well over a year but am just now moving into css layout and away from tables - i put in the time to master some formatting and stopped - stopped learning more but enjoyed using what i had learned - now i am at a point where i am ready to move to the next phase.
do the math: say you have 10 pages - one <h1> header on each that is color A, one <h2> and one <h3> that are color b, then 5 - 10 paragraph headers that are color C - suddenly, your color scheme is all wrong according to the clint and you have to change all those colors. with css, you make 3 color changes and all pages are affected/done.
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yogaboy
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/21/2005 16:48:55
The standards issue is held up high by web designers "in the know", but it doesn't really amount to anything. Who really cares? Nobody except web designers wanting to feel that they know something everyone else doesn't. It's the same snobbery that FF users are always giving out, the same snobbery that Linux users are always giving out.
At the end of the day a good website is one that gives the user what they want - and it doesn't need to validate to wc3 at all.
Second, the much vaunted move to IE7 and xhtml "changing the web" is all a load of rubbish. I've been using .NET and Visual Studio for about 6 months now, and I was (at first) shocked to see that it produced "terrible" html. It puts a lot of things in upper case, leaves off /> the end of things and if you change it then it reverts it back to non-valid when you're not looking! After all the work I'd put in learning the standards, getting up the hill to the fabled doctype strict.
Now I don't know why I bothered. I can still use XML, XSLT, AJAX etc etc, doesn't matter about the doctype or the validity of the html. I use CSS to make sure it looks alright in different browsers and for ease of macro-styling, but I don't bother to make it valid anymore, just that it works.
Finally, CSS is crap. It's not consistent, it doesn't do what you expect, and the model it's built upon is flawed. I can't wait till CSS6 when it might actually be easy to use and do what you would expect. Or will we all be waiting for CSS7 to "change the web"?
I'm not saying don't use it, but to say it could be better is an understatement.
One more thing (as if I haven't said enough! , the really bad thing about IE is it's security problems, not it's standards-compliancy. The difference between the way things look in FF and IE is very small, it's just frustrating, but it's hardly anything to get your knickers in a twist about. I'm more interested in the present than the wrapping paper, and so is your average user.
</RANT>
oops, my tag is in uppercase - the internet might EXPLODE!
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yogaboy
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/21/2005 17:00:16
Tell me, what's wrong with tables?
I mean, if they didn't work, people wouldn't use them. And it's 1000 times easier to lay out a table than use divs and css - that's why people use them.
As I said, standards are over-hyped and CSS is bad (but useful).
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Tailslide
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 3:01:01
quote:
ORIGINAL: yogaboy
I still say CSS is crap.
Everything's crap if you can't manage it! I love CSS and find it much less confusing than dealing with complex nested tables. Plus as Dan said, the amount of time it saves me is enormous - want that column on the right hand side of the page rather than the left? No problem - done in about 30 seconds.
XML is probably the way forward - but it's even stricter than XHTML so it's better to get used to doing things properly now.
Without the W3C Standards we'd still be back at the stage we were at in 1996 when websites had a Netscape version and an IE version - that was hardly a good thing for clients was it?
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caz
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 6:08:33
quote:
There's loads of inconsistencies like this all throughout CSS. It's a mish mash,
I don't find it so, but then again I do have the advantage of information theory training and am used to building and using thesauri and various classification schemes (taxonomy in your world I guess.) There really is no escape from working at it and learning from practice when you do not have the theoretical background.
quote:
and then when you add in the lack of support across browsers (not just IE)...
Well, this is down to the browser manufacturers isn't it? They contribute to the W3C work and have prior knowledge of any changes in the pipeline, there is really no excuse for their sometimes poor support. MS are also members of the W3C, but you wouldn't guess that would you?
As Tailslide said, do we really want to go back to the days of the browser wars? The internet is growing up and designers should do the same.
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yogaboy
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 6:52:32
I've given several specific examples to back up what I've said, and not been given answers to those specifics.
quote:
I don't find it so, but then again I do have the advantage of information theory training and am used to building and using thesauri and various classification schemes (taxonomy in your world I guess.) There really is no escape from working at it and learning from practice when you do not have the theoretical background.
You are only talking about yourself here - what do you know about my background?
quote:
Everything's crap if you can't manage it!
I can manage and have managed it as I pointed out earlier.
quote:
complex nested tables
I wouldn't use complex nested tables for layout - nobody bothered to get me to elaborate the point and so now you've missed it.
I suppose you're using the old lawyers trick - if you don't want to argue the facts then argue the man. I haven't made any personal comments towards any of you, I was talking about CSS and web standards, and I'm quite happy to be proved wrong or right on these issues, we're all here to give our opinion and (hopefully) learn.
If you want to make it personal with bitchy comments that's your business, I'm off to a technical board.
FYI
For those who want to see that people from a technical background can have differing opinions about CSS (and XSL and related), here's a link to a discussion on an article (partly by Hakon Lie) at Slashdot.
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Tailslide
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 7:27:53
I don't think that I was being bitchy or personal at all - at least not any more than this:
quote:
Who really cares? Nobody except web designers wanting to feel that they know something everyone else doesn't. It's the same snobbery that FF users are always giving out, the same snobbery that Linux users are always giving out.
CSS is just another way of doing things - and like everything else it's not perfect and it takes a bit of time to get to grips with it. But you can't just write it off as "crap" any more than you can write off asp.net or php or any other method - and if you do then you can't be suprised if people with experience of CSS think that you haven't looked into it for long enough.
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caz
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 7:48:02
Well you were provocative with your initial post weren't you, so what did you expect from a bunch of non-technical web designers anyway?
I was not implying anything about your background, just that I have an advantage that I suspect many in this forum don't which is why many find specificity and inheritance to be difficult concepts initially.
That technical discussion that you referred to btw is tangental to the op's current enquiry as it concerns "Printing XML: Why CSS Is Better than XSL".
You weren't asked to elaborate on your remark about the usefulness of tables because that was not the topic of this thread and many of us find layout easier and more intuitive using css - but you don't and that's your opinion. Mango may, or may not agree with you when he has looked more closely into CSS.
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I remember when it took less than 4hrs to fly across the Atlantic.
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dpf
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 9:57:57
good discussion!
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Mango Himself
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 11:53:14
Yogaboy:
I started this thread with a doubt on validation. I have received very valuable information from highly experienced individuals. They are not charging me for it, they are not asking anything in return. They are being helpful!
Be nice! And especially, be nice to the ladies!
You are entitled to your opinions and you may defend them as strongly as you want but do it in a corteous, elegant manner!
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yogaboy
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 17:17:42
Caz:
quote:
Well you were provocative with your initial post weren't you
I'm allowed to do that, and I didn't make any personal comments about anyone doing it. And it's marked RANT.
quote:
what did you expect
a discussion around the technical side of things or the odd piss-take comment (which I got and was very happy to accept) and not derisory personal comments.
quote:
I was not implying anything about your background
read your post again
quote:
taxonomy in your world I guess.) There really is no escape from working at it and learning from practice when you do not have the theoretical background.
the first bold is definitely about me. The second one could be about anyone, but let's face it, you're including me in that group by implication.
quote:
many find specificity and inheritance to be difficult concepts initially
that wasn't the model I was talking about, I was using inheritance etc as an example of inconsistency. But reading back my post I could easily have made that distinction clearer.
quote:
That technical discussion that you referred to btw is tangental to the op's current enquiry as it concerns "Printing XML: Why CSS Is Better than XSL".
I know what it concerns, doesn't change a thing or the reason I posted it. If you don't get it then fine, lets leave it at that.
quote:
non-technical web designers
I wasn't implying in any way that you or anyone else is not technical, just that you weren't willing to tolerate a differing opinion (however badly/strongly put) by dealing with it in a technical/non-personal manner. That's why I highlighted the "can" and not the "technical", but I mentioned the technical to point out that someone technical could express these ideas - to counter your derisory comment about my background/experience/knowledge (that you don't know about).
As I said, I've kept it non personal, and what's upset me are the personal comments. Blow my ideas on CSS out of the water by all means, just keep your personal comments to yourself. Especially since you have nothing to base it on but a RANT!
Tailslide
quote:
at least not any more than this:
good point, I accept that you could think you weren't stepping out of line compared to what I'd written. Really I was trying to make an observation about the dogmatic position I see regularly expounded. I'll be more careful with the way I write that in future.
quote:
But you can't just write it off as "crap"
that may be fair too, but I didn't see a strong technical argument or many of the specific (as opposed to general) points I made being addressed.
Mango Himself
quote:
Be nice! And especially, be nice to the ladies!
You are entitled to your opinions and you may defend them as strongly as you want but do it in a corteous, elegant manner!
Good advice, but you've written the wrong person's moniker at the beginning of your post. As I've pointed out (at a length that shouldn't be required) I made no personal comments about anyone else and stuck to the technical side of things.
If the ladies don't like it then they shouldn't give it out (have you heard about treating everyone equally?)
As for going off topic, if someone gives out personal crap then I reserve the right to post whatever I like to defend myself. Did I swear at someone? Did I mention anyone's background in a derisory manner?? - NO.
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dpf
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RE: Validation is becoming ridiculous!!! - 12/22/2005 17:38:50
yogaboy: first of all, I think you went way too far calling css crap - I think it must be looked at for what it is - a formating mechnism in conjunction with html and in that sphere, it far far exceeds what htm was like without it. i would have to see many more examples of it s weaknesses/problems than the minor ones you gave.
2nd
there is a lot I agree with here:quote:
The standards issue is held up high by web designers "in the know", but it doesn't really amount to anything. Who really cares? Nobody except web designers wanting to feel that they know something everyone else doesn't. It's the same snobbery that FF users are always giving out, the same snobbery that Linux users are always giving out.
..however, this part: "wanting to feel that they know something everyone else doesn't" is unwarranted and unsupported - speculating at a distance about someones motives will always get you on the hot seat!
3rd I agree with this: quote:
Tell me, what's wrong with tables?
I mean, if they didn't work, people wouldn't use them. And it's 1000 times easier to lay out a table than use divs and css - that's why people use them.
I have only heard 2 answers to that query in the past. one, the complexity of nested tables to which I reply, other than border control (which css solves!) I have almost never seen an example of nested tables that couldnt have been accomplished with rowspan and colspan. two: accessibility - they dont "lineralize" which Im not entirely sure what that mean except I think it has to do with the sequence in which screen readers parse the material - I stand to be corrected on that , but.... that leads me to :
4th - your best point : quote:
Wouldn't it be better if the consumers/browsers announced their type when requesting a page so that they could be sent data tailored for their device?? We all know life would be easier if just the current browsers announced themselves properly, or told us whether they were using javascript etc. Why not send blind people information in a way they can really take it in, that isn't designed for sighted people but with a quick thought for those "less well off"?
..as I have learned about accessibility on here (which i didnt know a thing about before I came) I am continually struck by the sense that it is sort of the tail wagging the dog - in order for a screen reader to make sense of pages that werent designed with screen readers in mind, reasonable techniques become no - nos. At one point, I posted the idea of why have have a <screenread> tag and simply put a text version of the material in that? clean and clear and the screen reader doesnt have to make guesstimates and assumptions. it was shot down as "that would be a duplicationand swell file size" which is nonsense - and extra 1 or 2 KB means nothing even to a dial up.
Ive seen you help a lot of people here so I dont think you intended to hurt anyone's feeling but you did: with this "If you want to make it personal with bitchy comments that's your business, I'm off to a technical board. "
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