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Ken of Kentropolis
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/11/2006 20:19:51
quote:
ORIGINAL: spitfire
... I just can't seem to stop myself hand-coding now - and don't have the time (or inclination if I'm honest) to re-learn FP.
Trust me ... if you have time to hand code, you have time to learn FP ... and kung fu ... and carpentry ... and raising a family ... and learning multiple foreign languages ...
******
On another note, the dictionary joke gave me a perfect example of standards versus the real world ... I'll have to catalog that one away for another thread ...
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d a v e
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 2:27:26
spitfire . yep sorry it's IE that deosn't support abbreviation ;)
ken inline frames are cross browser, not IE only :)
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dpf
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 10:38:07
today, I feel like arguing the other side........
in the MS-DOS days, software developers had full access to system resources and as a result, every program you used in DOS had a totally different way of doing things - the learning curve was step and never got better no matter how many programs you used. along came windows and develoers had to turn system access over to windows and you got (ahem) standardization - FILE..EDIT...VIEW etc were the same on every program. learn one windows based program and the next was easy to master. a good thing.
if there had been the OS competition every anti_MS person wishes had ben there, what would have happened? multiple versions of every program would have been needed which = higher costs and less inter-changeability.
should Windows and MAC OS's adopt "standards"? - nope - different machines - buy one and who cares about the other. but the net...ahhh the net - standards/uniformity are crucial. what if each television network sent their tv signal differently? and different tv manufacturers "rendered" the data differently? chaos.
So today, I vote standards. who knows what tomorrow will bring?
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Ken of Kentropolis
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 11:53:34
Stardards by some global body would be great in a perfect world. There is the flaw.
Which came first, the web or standards?
We can't pretend the web should be this way and that and expect everyone to conform. Just because a bunch of people decide to use them and make "complaint" browsers -- after the fact -- is just as much about defiance and denial than it is about trying to artificially fix the situation.
I may as well use my analogy ...
Let's say Webster (Webster's Dictionary) changes the spelling of certain words, and omits others, adding a few more. And I mean if doing it because a bunch of linguistics leaders get together and decide to somehow improves the language.
30% of publishing companies and media organizations decide to use the Webster "standard" instead of real world English. So freaking what? People complain about "aint" not being in the dictionary -- it's not a word, they say! How come I have to change my speech and writing for the 70-90% of people who refuse to conform? How dare it do it's own thing, just because they can get away with it?
You see, the whole thing seems really stupid to me.
In real life, Webster publishes their dictionary based on real world usage, not the other way around. When "aint" fell out of use by school teachers everywhere as too colloquial, it was dropped. Decades later it was added again because people insisted on using it anyway. The "standard" for American English is the dictionary. It is a reference for the "correct" and "acceptable" but is not an authority on its own. It is only as good as its ability to grasp what the language is REALLY doing out there.
If W3C (all and the pro-standards people) knew their place and acted like Webster, instead of being some unquestioned, wise "ruler of the web", it would add tags and render rules to reflect whenever M$ made a change. All political pity-partying aside, it only makes sense. But people just can't let go -- how dare a company unilaterally set a standard! Oops! I just admitted it was the standard!
And with this, one last thought. Even if M$ is doing their thing to keep dominance, maybe THEY SHOULD. YOu say they have the responsibility to comply because you think it's best. I think they have the responsibility to NOT comply, but evolve like any other leader of industry, and make other people catch up if they can. Free Enterprise.
They did it before, and now there's a PC in every house that people can actually use instead of play with as a hobby or toy. They scraped 20 years off of consumer computing progress by being a bully-monopoly-whatever and now the only people who have trouble doing business are those in denial that we live in a M$ world.
BTW, I own stock in M$, can you tell? 
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caz
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 14:14:53
Which came first, the web or standards?
Well actually standards, when Sir Tim - you know him the Father of the Internet?- first conceived the idea of a Web of computer systems being able to talk to each other, regardless of platform. The language was html and to enable this all systems had to be able to translate html code. Just like I have to translate the meaning of the many English dialects like "american english".
It helps to know the grammar/structure of real english as spoken by the English, in the same way standardised coding enables efficient rendering of pages, transferring information accurately instead of just a "best guess".
Sir Tim leads the W3C, who else would you entrust with such a task?
BTW, W Gates initially dismissed the Internet/Web as irrelevant to M$ interests which allowed Apple/Netscape to dominate the early days and the standard for real English is the Oxford English Dictionary.
quote:
f W3C (all and the pro-standards people) knew their place and acted like Webster, instead of being some unquestioned, wise "ruler of the web", it would add tags and render rules to reflect whenever M$ made a change.
M$ are members of the W3C.
Tell me is your house built to conform with Building/Fire codes? I know that mine is ie. it conforms to those standards and I am glad that it does. Standards exist for a purpose beyond commercial interests that is to keep us safe, to ensure that the services that we use/buy are fit for their purpose regardless of who provides/develops them and not for "political" reasons.
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I remember when it took less than 4hrs to fly across the Atlantic.
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spitfire
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 15:07:39
@ caz
An extremely, erudite, measured and well reasoned argument if I may say.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ken of Kentropolis
from: Let's say Webster (Webster's Dictionary) changes the spelling of certain words, and omits others, adding a few more.
all the way down to:
It is only as good as its ability to grasp what the language is REALLY doing out there.
@ Ken
The English language is a mixture of Celtic, Anglo, Romano, Norman and Saxon languages, with a pinch of Heugenot, a dash of Viking and a smidgeon of Spanish (from the Armada shipwrecks) thrown in. Despite its lack of pedigree, it received several millenia of honing into a refined method of communication for most of the globe and nearly all peoples when spoken as a second language. The mistake was the English exported it to the lands beyond the Western Sea and just look what happened then. It became centered on the colorful demands of that conglomerate that revels under the camel notation of MicroSoft.
P.L.U.S as the English language changes in line with common usage, several people and organisations who consider themselves un-common (even exalted) find themselves lagging far behind the rest.
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Ken of Kentropolis
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 16:17:39
quote:
ORIGINAL: caz
Which came first, the web or standards?
Well actually standards, when Sir Tim - you know him the Father of the Internet?- first conceived the idea of a Web of computer systems being able to talk to each other, regardless of platform. The language was html and to enable this all systems had to be able to translate html code.
You mean Al Gore? Nevermind. Before many players became involved, I will assert that HTML was not a "standard" in the W3C sense but simply a "version" of a protocol people started to use. Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but maybe someone else here can better elucidate what I mean.
But even if I lose this round, the web required some kind of standard (in your sense) to start with, and was formed by those working on the initial technology -- this was more or less a pre-commercial phase. Now it's a whole new World(WideWeb).
quote:
It helps to know the grammar/structure of real english as spoken by the English, in the same way standardised coding enables efficient rendering of pages, transferring information accurately instead of just a "best guess". ... and the standard for real English is the Oxford English Dictionary.
Like Spitfire makes obvious by his examples, the dictionary didn't come before the language, and it NEVER SHOULD.
And as for Oxford ... heheheh
Webster was the first to "standardize" the spelling of the English language -- his dictionary predates the Oxford by more than a few years. Before this time, there were no "rules" of spelling at all, just common practices.
And do you know why more and more companies are outsourcing call center work OUTSIDE India? Because India uses the Queen's English instead of what is being called "Global English" -- which is basically American. The British Empire was a blast, but the party's over. Times have changed, my friend.
{I mean no offense by any of this and am not trying to be ethnocentric ... just trying to joke a little and calling it as I see it in actual global trends}
quote:
Sir Tim leads the W3C, who else would you entrust with such a task?
TRUST NO ONE.
Let the market and it's players decide. But this slips us into socialism versus capitalism, so I'll stop at that. Let's just say I work with business people and geeks, and I have a strong opinion as to which should be the horse and which should be the rider. (Can we start another thread on that one, or will I be kicked out for saying that altogether?)
quote:
Tell me is your house built to conform with Building/Fire codes? I know that mine is ie. it conforms to those standards and I am glad that it does. Standards exist for a purpose beyond commercial interests that is to keep us safe, to ensure that the services that we use/buy are fit for their purpose regardless of who provides/develops them and not for "political" reasons.
Very good analogy -- really made me think. But I don't accept it. And not because we're not talking about breaking the web or causing any harm --
Building codes came after buildings. Long after. And codes could not exist if particular companies didn't develop particular products, such as a certain gauge wire or a fuse system. Standards came out of whose products grabbed the market by the balls AND made the most sense (meeting measurable criteia).
Not that measurable structural engineering tolerances and inflammability ratings can be compared to "better" or "worse" web user experience, but if M$ didn't at least do the job at some reasonable threshhold of expectaion, it wouldn't have had market share then, and wouldn't have it now. (READ: market share is not proportional to quality, but is a pre-requisite factor in creating and maintaining it)
So if M$ really is so bad, the market will shift to some other browser, regardless of its compliance to any standard. But it sure will do whatever IE can to reasonably compete.
But everything I said stems from a premise you may not agree with: I think innovation together with competition naturally CREATES and advances standards out any initial chaos and disparity, just like it has in any other industry. And standards need to keep up with the industry istead of policing it.
I know I'm much happier after having been a$siMilated ...
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dpf
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 17:18:55
quote:
Will somebody, please split this thread? ..as long as nothing gets personal, Im enjoying this one..lol
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dpf
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 17:30:37
quote:
wall-to-wall sunshine ...well, Im in north florida 15 miles from Georgia so, yes sunshine but only 10 degress above freezing.....gulp - I hope wifey doesnt read this - she's back up north in 12" snow and 20 degrees below freezing..hehe
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dpf
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 18:03:12
haha..but i didnt tell her..lol
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Ken of Kentropolis
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/12/2006 19:50:57
Sounds like you got an itch, man ...
quote:
Oxford ... Several hundred years older than the US of A, let alone the major seats of learning you have.
Not at all what I was talking about ... maybe you could brush up on your English? Oops! I meant "American Emglish" -- must be confusing to have to translate all this Seriously, just poking fun. And I actually use British spelling of many words now and then, such as "theatre" and "centre" -- it adds more colour to the language. Just don't make me do the accent. 
quote:
Got any stats to back up this contention
quote:
And do you know why more and more companies are outsourcing call <strike>center</strike> centre work OUTSIDE India?
because my telephone is hot with calls from Asian call centres and several of them are calling on behalf of British branches of US Companies.
I read so many different IT-business journals, there's no chance I'd remember which ones I've seen references to this practice -- I recycled the last batch (where the articles I'm referring to were) the other day, but I'm not saying India isn't still hot -- I'm just saying I've recently heard about companies choosing countries like the Phillipines over India specifially for that reason, with the goal of pleasing the North American market. But the trend is just starting and time will tell if it will be a larger factor in the future.
If I come across anything before the thread dies, I'll post links.
quote:
Of course, I can't comment on your comments on building and structural engineering, 'cos I've only been married to an Architect whose brother is a Structural Engineer for many years. I can't comment because they are still falling about laughing.
Now I know you're making that up. I didn't say anything even slightly questionable on that subject ... or are you making fun of the word "inflammible"? (If you want to talk engineering and general contracting, you will find I'm not without some experience and knowledge in those areas.)
It's hard to tell if you're starting to take this personally or just kidding around like I am trying to be. I do like you personally from my limited experience on the boards -- I hope there isn't any animosity here.
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Ken of Kentropolis
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/13/2006 7:16:16
That's cool man. 
And for once, the snow didn't hit here (Buffalo, known for its blizzards) -- I'm in New Yok State, but not on the seaboard.
And after I thought about it, did I sound stupid over the firecodes analogy because I didn't distinguish between municipal cosed and idustry standards (UL, etc)? (At least there's a sharp distinction in America and I don't want to assume it's the same there.) After more thought I realize that would have made an interesting point of difference had I not glossed over it, but I wouldn't have thought anyone here would have cared ...
As for India, my understanding is that there are two major opposing factors in shifting labo(u)r costs (which itself is only one factor in total cost of doing busines with India, so it's not always economic sense). Competition within and to a lesser extent without may not outweigh positive changes in their country's economic growth (and inflation plus growing consumerism as quality of life and access to goods increases), although they are still hampered big-time by infrastructure, and their labour supply will be far outstripped by demamd within a few years. In many of the articles I've read recently, the authors and experts quoted are concluding the gravy train might be over soon, and the labour cost advantage of outsourcing is already shrinking for many.
In my own business, I see quotes for projects I send to India rising (but my choose to outsource was primarily due to lack of reliable talent locally, so I'm not hurting). And I have to admit, from my limited experience, my vendor "understands English" better than their American counterparts I've dealt with when it comes to communicating technical and business need. I know -- I'm giving you a free shot there ...
BTW, what does any of this have to do with collapable outlines? 
It sounds like a typical conversation when my friends come over. We start talking about things like work or religion and end up on things like anthropology and physics. Maybe someone should write BB software to accomodate divergent threads as a main forum structure instead of a limited moderator process. Man, I woke up early to spew all this rattlings on? I'm going back to bed .... zzzzz
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spitfire
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/13/2006 8:50:09
quote:
I'm in New Yok State, but not on the seaboard.
There you are you see. I always get in a state about the States in The States.
Then I wouldn't expect you to know where these places are, without a bit of a google:
Black Dog, Bugden, Goathurst, Piddle Hinton, Snitterfield
a..n..d.. Pratt's Bottom.
quote:
what does any of this have to do with collapable outlines?
What indeed? but then again we were (many moons ago) talking about Tailslide's post not yours.
I'll pass on the free shot, thanks, that would be "friendly fire".
BTW when they calmed down a bit, my relatives were laughing about an apparent cavalier attitude to building and public safety standards. I caught the names Steve McQueen, Paul Newman, William Holden, Richard Chamberlain and a couple of wimmin - don't know what the disaster movie was called though and you may be too young to remember it 
Sleep tight.
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sljsh
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/13/2006 9:15:38
How would using this show/hide script affect the search engines picking up the text of the page if it's hidden with this script?
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Tailslide
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RE: Nice show/hide script - 2/13/2006 9:38:22
sljsh
It shouldn't affect how a search engine reads the text as Google reads all markup on the page - and would therefore read all the things within the "closed" divs. They're basically just styled lists.
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Ta ta.
