Starting at absolute scratch (Full Version)

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DAK1220 -> Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 13:42:11)

Hey,
I'm a new owner of FrontPage and the Que manual, "Using FrontPage 2003. " I have a moderate level of basic computer literacy, but after skimming through maybe half the manual in the last 24 hours, I can't quite figure out how to get started making a basic page. I feel like I am beginning to understand some of the details, but what good is that if I can't even get started?

I have imported a couple samples just to look at the code (not to use without permission). But it's still above me how to get from a blank white sheet to a functional page. Is there some little book or web page that can take a newbie by the hand and show him, step by step, how to construct a sample page with, say, a full-width graphic banner at the top, a box of labels and buttons down the left side, a text area in the center, a verical array of photos down the right side, and a row of links at the bottom? That's a pretty basic page, and eventually I'd like to do some really fancy things. But this honking 1038-page manual doesn't even tell me how to do a simple thing like make a decent page from scratch.

Any help out there?

DK



jcm001 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 14:18:25)

Here's a book that should help: Head First HTML with CSS & XHTML. By: Elisabeth Freeman & Eric Freeman. Publisher: O'Reilly.



caz -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 14:36:10)

The Tutorials/Faq on this forum are the place to start when you want to learn how to use Frontpage.

Frontpage techniques

Bear in mind that what you described is not that simple, so you should also become familiar with (x)html and css as jcm001 said. It pays to know the code when using any html editor.

Welcome to the forums DK [:D]



reformed hater -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 14:55:12)

I started by looking at other peoples codes and changing things around just to see what it did. but i'm still a newbie to it all. Hmmmm, maybe if I read someting[8|]



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 15:02:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caz

The Tutorials/Faq on this forum are the place to start when you want to learn how to use Frontpage.

Frontpage techniques

Bear in mind that what you described is not that simple, so you should also become familiar with (x)html and css as jcm001 said. It pays to know the code when using any html editor.

Welcome to the forums DK [:D]


OK, now we're starting to get somewhere. This is what I'm talking about.
I guessed that the simple page I described might not be that easy. In Word or WordPerfect I would insert a text box to the left and then put my text in the box. I don't see any text boxes in FP. (At least not one that works the same way).
I can accomplish something close by creating a table to the left. Tables in 2003 have to be at least five rows high; if I insert a table one column wide and (x) rows high and set the column width at 75 pixels, I can insert buttons in the lower rows and then fill the top row with text. The buttons fit well and the top row expands vertically to fit the text as it grows, so I can achieve an effect very close to what I want.
But a text box would be better. Is there one somewhere? How does the webmaster of this forum get that column of text down the left margin and put the advertisement box into the upper left corner? (I mean, from scratch, and not starting from a template.)
And what about the top banner? I keep inserting a banner, and what I get doesn't seem anywhere close to say, the banner at the top of this forum. How do you do one of those?

DK



Tailslide -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 15:11:05)

Crikey you read all that stuff quick!!



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 15:15:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tailslide

Crikey you read all that stuff quick!!


This is important! Gotta work fast! [8|]



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 15:54:28)

Oh, and is there a free or cheap utility somewhere that I can download and use to convert a Word or WordPerfect text banner into a GIF file?



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 20:30:31)

OK, now this is pretty frustrating. I'm still trying to puzzle out the secrets of the "intuitive interface" (heavy sarcasm intended.)

For example, one of my immediate goals is to create a nice pagetop banner. I click on Insert and see a tag that says "Page Banner" and I think "Oh, there it is!! And I insert a page banner and fill out the little dialog box and click OK and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENS. And no obvious clue as to what I didn't do.

Oh, wait. There's text in the non-banner that says "Add this page to the navigation structure to display a page banner here" Cool! OK, I'll just. . .I'll just. . .um, HOW do I add this page to the navigation structure???

This all reminds me of the weekend after I brought home my very first computer for business use--a fancy new Epson IBM/XT compatible with a 40MB hard drive and WordPerfect 4.2. It took me over an hour to figure out how to get a page to print. (I admit, though. . .it was fun, even though my mother was ticked at me for disappearing into the basement all weekend when she was visiting from out of town.)

But I'm too old for such silliness now, and I don't wanna spend all my free time for the next week figuring out how to do things that will take ten seconds to do a second time once I figure out the secrets. I want INSTANT GRATIFICATION!!

OK, I'm stopping to take a long, slow breath here. There, that's better. . .

Is there anybody out there who can give me a few simple instructions on the easy beginner stuff??

(Thanks)[>:]



dpf -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 20:36:36)

quote:

Is there anybody out there who can give me a few simple instructions on the easy beginner stuff??
caz did above - the tutorials



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/8/2006 20:53:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpf

quote:

Is there anybody out there who can give me a few simple instructions on the easy beginner stuff??
caz did above - the tutorials


That's what I thought, too. I read 'em, and they're good. But I failed to find the specific answer to this particular question. . .

[8|]



caz -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 5:05:14)

I'd also suggest the Frontpage Help files. The thing to remember about web design is that it takes time to learn even the basics, never mind all the bells and whistles.

No-one should take the marketing message of, "Be a web master overnight" seriously. If you really haven't the time then I suggest that you buy some good templates. (IMHO of course. [;)])



golfer -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 8:31:51)

You don't become an Electrician in one day. You start at the VERY beginning.

Frontpage is a very useful tool but you must learn to use it before embarking on building a reasonable looking web site.

Use the help section contained in Frontpage. It tell you step by step how to add background colour, tables, images, navigation etc.

Don't bother with adding a theme. Once you have the basics if is highly unlikely that you will ever want to use them.



d a v e -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 9:06:19)

there's these too




DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 9:43:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golfer

You don't become an Electrician in one day. You start at the VERY beginning.

Frontpage is a very useful tool but you must learn to use it before embarking on building a reasonable looking web site.


Don't bother with adding a theme. Once you have the basics if is highly unlikely that you will ever want to use them.



Now, that part about themes is an interesting Catch 22 (apparently). The manual advises that themes aren't really necessary--use templates. Fair enough. But then it appears that in order to place a page banner, you MUST have a theme chosen. So how do you place a banner without a theme? That's the kind of question I'm puzzling over.

I wish I could just build something in WordPerfect and slap it on the web with the built-in web publish feature. I've been creating good-looking mail-out glossy color flyers with WordPerfect for years. Designing a site on paper is no problem. The advanced bells and whistles really aren't that difficult, either. But the simple task of finding out how to get FrontPage to put things where I want them is turning out to be the big challenge.

So again I ask: can anybody tell me, or point me at a tutorial that will tell me, how to get a box of text running down the left side of the page the way this forum site does it? (That one task will be enough for now.)(I'll check out the sites that Dave posted as soon as I can get to them this morning. Thanks, Dave!)

DK



womble -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 10:53:22)

quote:

I wish I could just build something in WordPerfect and slap it on the web with the built-in web publish feature. I've been creating good-looking mail-out glossy color flyers with WordPerfect for years. Designing a site on paper is no problem. The advanced bells and whistles really aren't that difficult, either. But the simple task of finding out how to get FrontPage to put things where I want them is turning out to be the big challenge.

This is your problem. Designing on paper isn't the same as designing on the web - it's not just a question of cut and paste. As others have said, you can't learn it overnight and to get something that's going to stand up. WYSIWYG isn't always true - and certainly isn't true if you want a site that's cross-browser compatible - you need to have at least a basic understanding of how the code works.

If you check out the code for this page ("view source" in your browser) you'll see the page is a table layout and some elements of the page are 'includes'. As for adding a column down the left, the easiest way (assuming you've already got some sort of table layout set up) is to add a column on the left for your text. The tutorials that Caz directed you to here on OutFront explain clearly the basics (and more advanced) techniques used to build tables and table layouts in FP - Creating tables with FrontPage.

As Caz suggested, if you're in a serious hurry and haven't got time to learn it, then your easiest option is to get a template and simply put your content into the template.



Taz -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 11:04:05)

I concur with those here on the learn to walk before you try entering the Olympic 100m event. Try and cut corners at the early stages and you will regret it at a later date.

Get it right from the start or spend endless hours trying to fix0r mistakes later down the road.

End of the day there is no fast way to do what you intend to do, so more reading and training, less headlong rush will serve you much better.

Good luck.



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 11:13:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: womble

This is your problem. Designing on paper isn't the same as designing on the web - it's not just a question of cut and paste. As others have said, you can't learn it overnight and to get something that's going to stand up. WYSIWYG isn't always true - and certainly isn't true if you want a site that's cross-browser compatible - you need to have at least a basic understanding of how the code works.

If you check out the code for this page ("view source" in your browser) you'll see the page is a table layout and some elements of the page are 'includes'. As for adding a column down the left, the easiest way (assuming you've already got some sort of table layout set up) is to add a column on the left for your text. The tutorials that Caz directed you to here on OutFront explain clearly the basics (and more advanced) techniques used to build tables and table layouts in FP - Creating tables with FrontPage.



Womble, that is EXACTLY the pointer I was looking for. Tables! Now I know where to BEGIN. (Seems I was on the right track already, and didn't know it).

(The other stuff about a web not being WYSIWYG and looking different on other browsers than it looks on my machine. . . I grok that. The manual was clear on the concept.)

Thank you.



caz -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 11:36:10)

quote:

So again I ask: can anybody tell me, or point me at a tutorial that will tell me, how to get a box of text running down the left side of the page the way this forum site does it? (That one task will be enough for now.)(I'll check out the sites that Dave posted as soon as I can get to them this morning. Thanks, Dave!)


In the tutorials here http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/design/layout.htm

And if you miss the link in that one - http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/fp_techniques/tables1.htm



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 11:43:11)

Thanks, Caz. I'm getting somewhere now.

DK



dpf -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 13:06:20)

quote:

then your easiest option is to get a template
easiest option is to hire someone who has invested years in learning. "page banner" can mean a lot of things - apparently FP has something they call page banner connected to themes but more commonly a page banner is a graphic you build in graphics software then place it on the page with table or css or include file.

be honest - starting with you ibm xt - there was a long learning curve to building the beauties in word perfect. the web is a different medium and takes time



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 13:24:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpf

quote:

. . . "page banner" can mean a lot of things - apparently FP has something they call page banner connected to themes but more commonly a page banner is a graphic you build in graphics software then place it on the page with table or css or include file. . .


Excellent! Another key piece of the puzzle! Thanks, dpf! [:)]

DK



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 16:13:35)

Dave and Caz and Womble, you did it!
The tutorials are all excellent, now that I see the direction I need to go. Especially, the diagram at http://www.outfront.net/tutorials_02/design/layout.htm
told me EXACTLY what I wanted to know, now that I know that "tables" is the holy grail. Now of course I'll have to thrash about for a while figuring out how to do it on an actual web site, but at least now I know the goal I am headed for. Mission accomplished!
(for now, anyway. . .)

DK [:)]



rdouglass -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/9/2006 16:33:53)

quote:

now that I know that "tables" is the holy grail.


Wait 'till you read the CSS forum. [:o] [;)]



dpf -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/10/2006 10:01:13)

quote:

Wait 'till you read the CSS forum.
and/or asp



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/10/2006 10:43:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpf

quote:

Wait 'till you read the CSS forum.
and/or asp


Oh, I can hardly wait. . .

My goal is to get a really SIMPLE small business site up in the next couple of days. Just enough to be minimally functional.
After that I'll take my time and make it better and better. But first I gotta get off the ground. And you guys have helped enormously! Thanks!

DK



dpf -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/10/2006 11:21:39)

quote:

But I'm too old for such silliness now,
some of us are probably older!!! [:)]



DAK1220 -> RE: Starting at absolute scratch (3/13/2006 14:57:44)

Well, here it is:

www.2hcs.com

Rough, but almost functional. All photo items should be considered place markers, and some of the buttons don't lead anywhere yet. And the "contact" page doesn't actually work yet, because I haven't set up the e-mail addresses. But using a table to set up the home page was something I just didn't understand. I would have gotten there eventually, but when you absolutely, positively, have to have it. . .well, at least sometime this week. . .you guys were a big help. Thanks.

DK



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