Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (Full Version)

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Proprietor -> Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/9/2006 0:15:44)

I know that there are a bunch of posts on the topic of optimizing for page rankings, but I'm still unsure about the business case for paying a consultant approximately $72/hr. (CDN) to engage in search engine optimization and/or a search engine targeted marketing campaign.

I have heard of companies paying as much as $6 per click, which, in my opinion, is ridiculous for any but the highest end merchandise (yacht sales, perhaps...).

My own site is primarily aimed at soliciting $10 donations for a political effort aimed at replacing the paper and pony system we currently use for controlling our own governments, with a box and wire system that will enable us to actually control them.

Given my current budget, pay per click is out of the question, at anything near $6 per. Even at 6 cents per click, I'd have to carefully consider the advantage of pay per click over other techniques.

My question is this: should I pay someone to do some SEO and/or a search engine targeted marketing campaign, or not bother?

Advice would be greatly appreciated...



Mojo -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/9/2006 0:59:25)

OK. Where to start...?

I guess the first thing to say is that if $0.06 per click is expensive I don't see how you could justify $72 per hour.

quote:

$6 per click, which, in my opinion, is ridiculous for any but the highest end merchandise


It all depends on the profitability of what you're selling. Do you know your ROI? What are your conversion rates per landing page? If you don't know these two basic metrics then - IMO - you shouldn't be paying for anything. For what it's worth I used to pay $5 to $6 per click on $1200 items. Hardly a yacht.

quote:

should I pay someone to do some SEO and/or a search engine targeted marketing campaign, or not bother?


My initial response is don't do it and you have indicated - your project can't afford it nor PPC. Most of the SEO's that I'm aware of charge either by the project, by the keyword or by taking a share of the profit. Basically, these are good SEO's who practice SEM (search marketing) of which SEO is only a subset. Because they are good they like to be paid accordingly and that often means having their income tied to the performance of the project.

$1000 per month minimum.

IMO - you can get the same information with a few hours of searching (and then many in implementation) as you would paying someone $72 per hour for 10 hours work. I say this because it doesn't pay to charge by the hour for SEM work... you can make far, far more going with the rates I mentioned above. Which makes me wonder what kind of quality you get from the hourly sector...



Proprietor -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/9/2006 2:06:18)

Hey, thanks for the quick reply, Sir, and a considered one, at that...

I'm new to business on the web, and I'm trying to launch a genuinely new business to boot. Because the business itself is genuinely new, I don't have any examples of others in the field to use as a guide.

The notion of paying $5 or $6 per click outright frightens me, especially since, for the most part, I'm looking for a $10 donation. In a similar vein, because this is a political business, the optics of paying for the click that brings a donation, with that donation, have to be considered.

At the same time, the bulk of my marketing budget is aimed at the real world, as opposed to the virtual world of a website. Everybody crowed about how much Howard dean raised on the web for his presidential bid, but nobody mentioned that the key to his web success was his ground operation... My own focus is on the ground operation, as opposed to the website, despite the central role that the site will play.

From the sounds of it, my best option is to spend some time learning SEO basics, then apply them myself, before handing off the prototype site I'm building to a pro for finalizing and launch.

Anyway, thank you for the advice, Sir. If I ever get the chance, I'll buy you a beer with the money you just saved me, as part of the ground operation...



dpf -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/9/2006 8:22:44)

quote:

that the key to his web success was his ground operation...
plus the fact he was a serious candidate for us President



eTechSupport.net -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/9/2006 12:12:55)

I would be interested to look your site.



Mojo -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/9/2006 12:38:45)

Proprietor - I'm a bit confused... If the business is new and there is little competition why are the clicks $6 each? Are you sure you're looking at the correct terms?

For non-competitive industries you can often rank a blank page with a few quality backlinks. That's where you should start - backlinks.



eTechSupport.net -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/10/2006 5:08:01)

Perhaps he want to test both suspects and prospects by doing this.



Proprietor -> RE: Mojo's question (3/10/2006 15:14:00)

I apologize for not being very clear about what I'm doing; I'm not trying to hide anything, or play games, but I am trying to explain a project that took six years to plan, in the space available in this little box I'm typing in.

The site is only a portion of the project, albeit a time-consuming one. It's not online yet, even in test mode, so I haven't purchased any clicks, and do not plan on doing so, at this time.

I've heard of pay-per-click before, and I've also heard of goofy sites like one that allows you to 'vote' on what some dipstick is going to wear today getting tens of thousands of hits. When I saw the figure of $6 per, and did a little math, I defecated, because I need a great deal more traffic than dress_kevin.com, and I've allocated $1-$3 per head for marketing, but most of that is not for the website, and I don't have a quarter million to drop on the first few weeks of traffic...

I've already created PER Ltd., which is a limited liability corporation, as opposed to a political party. PER Ltd., however, is a political organization. However, PER doesn't do any of the things you would normally associate with political organizations, and does do things you would only expect from a technology company.

As a quick example, a portion of the project involves applying a "Linux" approach to developing a core machine design which consists of (19) physically separate, modified RISC processor-based, individually tasked servers, all integrated into a single, controlled-state machine.

If that sounds like an attempt to baffle with BS, first check out fixed state machines, for example the ones the U.S. uses to control nukes, then check out transient state machines, like the one you're reading this post on, then ask if it is possible to achieve the security of a fixed state machine, at the cost of transient state machines. It hasn't been done yet, but I'll refer you back to the word 'new'...

If you want to know more than what fits in this little box, send an e-mail address, and I'll send you a 'sneek peak' through YouSendIt. The archive is about 20MB, compressed, most of which won't matter to you, but if you're wondering what a controlled state machine is, and you wanna see the blueprints for one, they're in there; just follow the links...

Anyway, thanks for the help you've given, and thanks for your patience.


Mark



dpf -> RE: Mojo's question (3/10/2006 19:19:04)

proprietor - thats all very impressive but actually all is does is make the picture muddier. are you asking for $10 donations for that? why would people "donate" $10



Proprietor -> RE: Mojo's question (3/10/2006 22:11:32)

I'll try to make this a little clearer...

"Government of the people, by the people, for the people..."

That line makes the American people their government's boss, in principle, right?

In practice, the only opportunity Americans ever get to actually exert the authority they have over their own government is casting a ballot once every 2, 4 or 6 years. From time to time, various states will hold referendums as well, but these are unheard of nationally.

If Americans wanted a system to actually contain, control and manage their own government, they would need a system that enables 300 million people to jointly manage one (i.e one President, one secretary of defense, etc.)

Should they ask their own government to build one for them? Does that not strike you as hiring the fox to build the henhouse?

If the American people purchased a system for controlling their own government, that system would not control nuclear weapons, but it would be used to control the people that do. Does that strike you as the true, ultimate killer app?

How many companies, that you know of, have a many-to-one system design that will work at 300 million to one, plus a hardware platform which is sufficiently secure for the application, plus a workable implementation strategy, plus an organzational structure/business model suitable for the purpose?

I suppose we could just call Microsoft...

The basic motivation for making a donation is the same as any other political donation --> if you actually want something to change, you have to put your money where your mouth is, and your mouth where your money is.

Mark



dpf -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 8:26:12)

quote:

you have to put your money where your mouth is, and your mouth where your money is.
..the same being true about pay-per-click



Donkey -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 8:50:54)

Mark,

(This thread may well be curtailed or deleted because of it's political content, but remember you started it. [:D])

I can think of 4 problems with your idea:

1) Most people aren't knowledgeable enough or qualified enough to vote regularly on the minutiae of government. So who decides who qualifies to vote?

2) Most of us haven't got the time to "waste" learning all the background necessary to make decisions on all these different issues that government are responsible for. That's why we elect people to do it for us, it is called a representative democracy. If they make too many wrong decisions next time they don't get elected.

3) There are many populist issues on which the general public would make bad decisions because they are voting with their emotions rather than their brains. i.e. gun control, the death penalty, dangerous dogs etc.etc.

4) Some issues such as to go to war are decided with confidential information which cannot be made public because it would endanger members of the armed forces and clandestine operatives.

That's why you wouldn't get my donation.



dpf -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 9:08:39)

perfect donkey



dpf -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 9:10:39)

quote:

2) Most of us haven't got the time to "waste" learning all the background necessary to make decisions on all these different issues that government are responsible for. That's why we elect people to do it for us, it is called a representative democracy. If they make too many wrong decisions next time they don't get elected.
I worked over 20 years in government and I can tell you tha when you get to the details, government in the US is so large today that it is not possible for one person to study, analyze and understand it all. Senators and Congressman have large staffs assigned that task and to summarize for their boss. average citizens wouldnt have the time or resources



Proprietor -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 13:53:22)

To Donkey and DPF:

For the most part, I agree with the points you are making, but not the conclusions.

I am quite aware that the average citizen does not have anywhere near enough time to deal with all of the issues that government deals with on a daily basis, and have designed this management system accordingly --> the time burden placed on voters was the central design parameter.

However, this isn't an appropriate forum for a political discussion, and, if you're willing to be both fair and open-minded, you will recognize that the true complexity of the matter renders it unsuitable for this medium (too slow, too limited).

I'll just point out one thing that I'm sure you're already aware of, but don't recognize it's application to controlling government --> motivation is central to learning. I'm sure you'll notice that every aspiring webmaster that participate in this forum learns a tremendous amount, quickly, when they are sufficiently motivated to do so. If you think the average person is incapable of making sound decisions, you are grossly underestimating the average person. And if you don't believe me, check out what average people are capable of, by perusing this forum...

Sir Winston Churchill was average, in almost every respect...

Mark



Donkey -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 15:34:56)

quote:

However, this isn't an appropriate forum for a political discussion, and, if you're willing to be both fair and open-minded, you will recognize that the true complexity of the matter renders it unsuitable for this medium (too slow, too limited).
I disagree, it is possible to be fair and open minded and not agree with you.

I do not underestimate the public, I believe you have a very elevated view of the general public. I work in a small business and I have to do a bit of everything including dealing with customer service enquiries and I can assure you that the vast majority of customers I talk to shouldn't be let out on their own let alone given the vote. The thought of these poor buggers trying to work out which way they should vote on a complex issue appalls me.

I think your idea although well meaning would not "enfranchise" everyone it would lead to government by a self appointed mainly middle class group of do-gooders - the retired people and 9 to 5 ers with plenty of time on their hands and a bee in their bonnet about everything. The country would quickly go to hell in a handcart. I would stick with the current system it may not be perfect but it works.

BTW
As a Brit I resent the implication about Sir Winston, there was not much average about that man. Perhaps you are confusing him with current politicians - the statesman like Tony and his buddy Dublya. Being average is something for them to aspire to but they have a long way to go.



dpf -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/11/2006 15:46:28)

quote:

If the business is new and there is little competition why are the clicks $6 each? Are you sure you're looking at the correct terms?
i still dont see an answer to this



dpf -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 15:47:55)

As a American (Winston was 1/2 American) I resent the implication about Sir Winston, there was not much average about that man.



Proprietor -> RE: Mojo's question (3/11/2006 16:05:11)

Obviously, this thread is getting way off topic, so I'll shut up now, but I can't resist pointing out one thing.

Despite the fact that you disagree with my own characterization of Sir Winston, it strikes me as fairly obvious that we actually have much the same opinion of the man. I am not a great student of ancient history, hence wouldn't even try to compare him to leaders from other eras, but I personally consider him to be the greatest politician we've seen in many, many years, and don't know of anyone currently 'in practice' that I would compare to him.

To me, it is the fact that he was average in most respects that made him more than truly great, but a true inspiration as well...



Proprietor -> RE: Should I pay for a consultant to do SEO? (3/11/2006 17:37:07)

Sir:

I'm sorry if I'm taking up a bit much of your time, but I've has the opportunity to think about your response to one of my posts, and two things strike me.

First, you're absolutely right about $6 per click not being ridiculous. I thought about the numbers of hits I've heard of some sites getting, and did a little math, and was immediately flabbergasted, but I didn't properly consider the business case.

Second, I didn't phrase my own question or responses properly, which left you wondering not just what I was asking, but why.

I apologize, Sir; my only excuse is that I tend to write rather long posts, to avoid confusion, but I tend to confuse people, when I don't. I haven't quite learned the fine art of shutting up yet...



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